In Ankara today, Kerry had this to say::
Of course Turkish Foreign Minister Davutoglu had this too say:Speaking at a joint news conference in Ankara with Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu, Kerry stressed the “urgent need to promote a spirit of tolerance, and that includes all of the public statements made by all leaders.”Kerry said he had raised the comments “very directly” with Davutoglu and would do the same when he saw Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan later on Friday.......Kerry said the on the US side, “we not only disagree with it (Erdogan's speech - vb1 note), we found it objectionable.”He added: “I believe there is a way forward, but it obviously gets more complicated in the aftermath of a speech such as the one we heard in Vienna.”
...(Davutoglu) denied that Turkish officials were using hostile or offensive language, referring repeatedly to the deaths of nine civilians at the hands of Israeli commandos aboard a Gaza-bound Turkish aid ship in 2010.
Erdogan's commentary was so offensive that the U.N. even felt necessary to condemn it:He added: “If Israel wants to hear positive statements from Turkey, it needs to review its attitude. It needs to review its attitude toward us, and it needs to review its attitude toward the people in the region and especially the West Bank settlements issue.”
A UN statement said: "If the comment about Zionism was interpreted correctly, then it was not only wrong but contradicts the very principles on which the Alliance of Civilizations is based."
Later, the statement was reported in Turkey WITHOUT the term "Zionism" in it.The statement said UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon "believes it is unfortunate that such hurtful and divisive comments were uttered at a meeting being held under the theme of responsible leadership."
Either way, good for Secretary of State Kerry to stand up for the Jewish people in this manner. Going to a foreign nation and standing up for your allies to their highest officials is a sign of great character. It just goes to prove (ONCE AGAIN) that this administration is a solid friend to both Israel and the worldwide Jewish Community.
I see now the Administration has been downgraded to just a "solid" friend. In previous incarnations it was the "best" friend ever.
ReplyDeleteWhat else should Kerry have done here besides criticize? This was an easy gesture to make. We should not act as though it was bold, but expected.
Erdoğan has always been this way, as anyone interested in the subject could readily see. He was a leader of the outlawed neo-Islamist Welfare Party that tried to subvert Turkey's democratic, secular order.
However, just a year ago, Obama listed Erdoğan among the five world leaders who he has the closest personal ties with.
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-269076-obama-names-turkeys-erdogan-among-top-five-international-friends.html
So while a good thing, it would have been more outrageous to say nothing (because this actually matters in real life, as compared to what is said on the internet by irrelevant bloggers).
You say:
ReplyDeleteI see now the Administration has been downgraded to just a "solid" friend. In previous incarnations it was the "best" friend ever.
"Solid" is a good word to describe this administrations friendship with Israel and the Jewish People. "Top Three administrations" would also be good. I can't recall ever saying that this administration was definitively Israel's "best" friend ever. But it has been pretty darn good.
What else should Kerry have done here besides criticize? This was an easy gesture to make. We should not act as though it was bold, but expected.
Well Kerry could have done nothing as the purveyors at certain internet sites thought he would do when faced with criticism of Israel and the Jewish people. After all, he represents this administration and the administration according to some is the worst thing Israel has ever faced. Of course, you and I both know that those who would say those things are dumber than a bag of rocks... but still.
Instead, Kerry stood up directly to Davutoglu face to face and will be doing that with Erdogan in the same way. I say Kol HaKvod (you know what that means, right?) to the Secretary for doing what he did.
However, just a year ago, Obama listed Erdoğan among the five world leaders who he has the closest personal ties with.
WHAT??? A politician playing politics with a key ally in the region? NO WAY! Tell me that didn't happen. (/snark).
So while a good thing, it would have been more outrageous to say nothing
Right... so why not leave it at that rather than try to minimize this.
I am not trying to minimize. But let's not get carried away either.
ReplyDeleteWhat caused the downgrade of the friendship status of the Administration?
Sorry but I am a bit confused... What "downgrade" are you talking about?
DeleteAnd...
Who's getting carried away?
You called him an "outstanding" friend, one of Israel's "greatest" friends, that you could not think of a "better" friend. Now he is only "solid?" That seems a downgrade to me.
DeleteWell I AND Israeli Defense Minister Barak and Osraeli President Peres did call him an "outstanding friend" and I still think is. I also think he is one of Israel's greatest friends to occupy the Oval Office. "Solid" is no downgrade - it's just another term to describe a strong friendship.
DeleteSo no... no "downgrade".
Hey, btw did you see who will be the Sec. Def.'s first visitor..... Why it will be Ehud Barak (Israel's DM), imagine that.
They have to do so, as you cited the behavior of politicians, not to mention diplomacy. We, however, are not so limited by the lens of being on the world stage.
DeleteI wonder what they would say behind closed doors. Same for Obama.
I suspect the Israelis were less than enamored by the picks of Hagel and Brennan, for example, or the different treatment of Erdogan and Netanyahu, but just have to grin and bear it.
In other words, based on your past lauditory remarks about Obama's friendship with Israel, I thought there was a perceptible difference in calling it merely "solid."
DeleteNope sorry...
DeleteNo difference.
I wonder what they would say behind closed doors. Same for Obama
DeleteWell Barak and Peres in my opinion would say nothing different. I think they genuinely like and respect the President. In fact, President Peres is giving President Obama the Israeli Medal of Distinction (http://www.timesofisrael.com/peres-to-give-obama-medal-of-distinction/).
I would say that the President's relationship with PM Netanyahu is certainly rocky and neither man particularly likes the other, but that hasn't seemed to affect our countries friendship.
I suspect the Israelis were less than enamored by the picks of Hagel and Brennan, for example, or the different treatment of Erdogan and Netanyahu, but just have to grin and bear it.
I would agree and yes they do have to grin and bear it since it is after all the United States of America and not the United States of Israel. It's just like we have to grin and bear Avigdor Lieberman, or Yair Shamir or Danny Danon or Naftali Bennett in high positions.
Such is life.
No need to apologize for a confusing use of adjectives. There is a difference, however, between a solid and an outstanding performance. I don't even believe they are synonymous.
DeleteAs I showed, usually you are much more laudatory of Obama than to say he is merely solid toward Israel, which would accurately define most any president's performance in my view by nature of the US.Israel relationship.
Do you really believe all these leaders say in private what they say in public?
I do believe that what Barak, Peres, and Obama say about each other in public reflects their private thoughts as well... I guess we shall see when their memoirs are eventually published.
DeleteAs for Netanyahu and Obama... I don't believe they like each other on a personal level but each realizes that they need to deal with the other in a fairly close fashion and thus I think at times they get along and at times they don't.
BUT I think that's sort of inconsequential - because really what matters in the end are how the countries cooperate with each other and what they do for each other.
Oh and I don't see anything that really differs in "Solid" or "Outstanding" as I think President Obama has been both in his friendship towards Israel. But that is my opinion and I think the facts back it up.
I am particularly happy about the Presidents pick in John Kerry (though I think Susan Rice would have done a good job). As for Hagel... Meh.. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and wait and see (although I am encouraged that his first official visitor is DM Barak), BUT he would not have been my first or any pick though I do understand why the President chose him.
Of course, your facts will prove what you believe, but there are other facts as well. This is not to create an argument, only to state the obvious, and it is folly in my view to dismiss outright views that are based on a different set of facts, as many are wont to do.
DeleteHagel is bad news and was an odd choice for a friend of Israel, despite the public face, which is theater. His words matter, just as others' words do. And what of Brennan? He scares me, and I believe he is too deferential to groups like CAIR, ISNA and the MB, particularly considering their intentions.
Well, not to start an argument, but there are simple facts which are not geared to what any individual may or may not believe. There are (as you say) INTERPRETATIONS of certain things that are subject to political shading but the simple FACTS stand by themselves. I believe those simple facts show President Obama to be an outstanding friend to Israel. Remember, he is after all the President of the United States of America, NOT the United States of Israel and as such he has American interests as his primary concern. In that context it is hard to argue that he has not been an outstanding friend to the Israelis.
DeleteFurther, I think people need to define what being a "friend to the Israelis means". Does it mean going along totally with the Likud-Betainu / Israeli Right Wing philosophy? Does it mean going with whatever the RJC or ECI dictate? I don't think so but certainly others do. However, I have yet to see the Right Wing come up with comprehensive answers that will ensure either peace, OR even stability for Israel.
As for Hagel... I don't believe one can put his appointment in the context of "is Obama a friend to Israel". I don't think the appointment of Hagel had anything to do with Israel and honestly, I don't think it should have. The appointment of Hagel had to do with how the President views the changing landscape of U.S. Military involvement in the world and in the context of the drawdown in Central Asia. ALSO, it has to do with handling the military in an era of budget cuts. For that Hagel, while not being my choice, is not a bad choice.
Finally as for Brennan... I don't know enough about him, and what I do comes from sources that look at him in a negative light. If in the end he helps the U.S. then he is a good choice if not, then it was the wrong choice.
(livosh1)
ReplyDeleteKol Hakavod, John Kerry!
And . . . I think we've seen enough of dishonest right-wing trolls around here, volley. They have their own site where they can vomit to their hearts content. There's no reason to give them unlimited access to do that here. Feeding dishonest right-wing trolls just leads to more . . . vomit.
LOL livosh... it's just kind of funny to see what the RJC or ECI come up with regarding things even when the administration does exactly what they suggest.
DeleteBut yeah... "Kol HaKavod" to Secretary Kerry and the Administration for standing up to Erdogan's and Devutoglu's hateful comments.
More courageous stonethrowing at people from behind the keyboard, with all the cool words, such as as "right wing," "troll" and "dishonest."
DeleteAfraid of a little pushback and real discourse. Calling for censorship. Yet pretending to be a tolerant soul.
AND hey... look at this - Who is the first meeting with our new Secretary of Defense? Why it's Ehud Barak (still Defense Minister of ISRAEL until a government can be formed).
ReplyDeleteTo quote the Times of Israel:
A US official told Reuters that the talks between the US and Israeli counterparts would include discussions on Iran, but did not offer details. Israel and the US are publicly committed to thwarting what they believe is Iran’s drive to build nuclear weapons, but Barak and other Israeli leaders have urged a greater urgency in the struggle, with a greater stress on the possibility of military intervention, while the US is thus far sticking to diplomacy and sanctions in a bid to prompt Iran to halt the program.
“The secretary is honored that Minister Barak will be the first foreign counterpart that he will host at the Pentagon,” the official said, adding the two have known each other for more than a decade.
(livosh1)
DeleteI guess that our new Secretary of Defense is not the Israel-hating zealot that the ODS claimed -- and the Israel Sux crowd hoped -- he would be. Surprise Surprise. Heh. :)
Yep.. Imagine that...
DeleteWhat a stupid remark! No one hopes he will be an Israel-hating zealot. It shows who you are when all you are trying to do here is relish in disparagement.
DeleteThe fact is that you have no idea what he is really about, and look the other way from the antisemitic comments he, in fact, made, and his coziness to enemies of Israel and the the US.
Perhaps he will have to put aside this expressed animus for the time being, but I will not be surprised to see it appear or return in full force once he is back in personal life.
Because of the insatiable need to label people with a broad brush and conflate. Because to merely disagree with Obama is considered deranged, among other things, to people who arguably have OSS (Obama Sycophant Syndrome).
DeleteIn this case, the comment assumes the so-called ODS crowd wants Hagel to be anti-Israel (as anti-Israel people hope), just to make Obama look bad. The comment is therefore misleading, especially because Hagel, in fact, has made antisemitic statements and seems to hold an affinity for Israel haters.
When the sole purpose of a comment is to put down and disparage anyone with a different view, stupidity is not a surprising result.
It's not like the commenter has no pattern of similar abuses and name calling of others with impunity, which no one here ever criticizes.
(livosh1)
DeleteVolley, forget about it. His goofy comments make clear that he's (a) being totally dishonest, (b) dumber than a bag of hammers or (c) both. Take your pick . . .
Or, one can reflect on the fact that the comment was made for the sole purpose of being negative toward others. Not a whit of substance otherwise.
DeleteIt's time someone raises this pattern in which you disparage in virtually every comment. No one here really does besides me.
Have you EVER disagreed with someone not totally dishonest, deranges, or stupid?
I am far from as dumb as you think, but perhaps you will humor me and indicate how your comment was intended to add to the discourse.
You say people like me are intolerant, especially compared to people like you, but I found your comment was completely intolerant. So why can't you at least live by your own rules?
Stop being goofy oldschool... YOU misread his comment. Read it again and stop trying to make it what it is not.
DeleteHe said that he thought the anti-Israel crowd thought Hagel would be their guy, and the ODS crowd would be thinking, NOT WANTING BUT THINKING, that Hagel would be an Israel hater and that both the "Israel Sux" and "Obama Sux" caucuses were wrong.
Just admit it, you MISREAD his comment. You fucked up. No biggie, but stop trying to cover up that this is your mistake. Admit it and move on. This one is on you.
Not being goofy. Even if misread with regard to anti-Israel forces (many of which, like Iran, have in fact cheered Hagel's appointment), the comment is illustrative of what regularly occurs, adding nothing except more negativity that breeds contempt.
DeleteThe mention of ODS was unnecessary in this case, particularly as legitimate questions about Hagel exist. The ODS meme itself is vague and overbroad so as to include legitimate criticism. Hagel's symbolic act of meeting Barak does not by itself erase the cloud that hangs over him from his past connections and antisemitic statements.
Differences of views does not make one deluded, dishonest, or dumb, either, and it's time to stop classifying people that way unless they toe the acceptable line, particularly that Obama can do no wrong and Republicans are always malicious, end of story.
It's also time to stop calling people bigots because they, in good faith, see and discuss different threats to Israel and Jews, fueled by bigotry against Jews. To stand up against such bigotry does not make one a hater of all Muslims, yet one would never know that reading the content here.
Believe it or not, many progressives, including Jews, actually are in the dark about the extent of religious hatred that exists in the Middle East, Europe and elsewhere, that has nothing to do with socioeconomic factors or settlements or the government under Netanyahu. I know simply by speaking to them. This is complemented by people that are also anti-American, as you have experienced.
You may think that it is squeaky clean here, but in many respects it emulates what is prevalent elsewhere, a nastiness that is uncalled for. For example, how does me being called a bigot and lower than a cockroach (as you have now done more than once) serve ANY purpose whatsoever? It does not reflect the progressive value of tolerance, but seems more like how some scream about Islamophobia, a term foisted upon us by the Muslim Brotherhood solely to silence legitimate criticism of its anti-liberal agenda?
I challenge you or the commenter that regularly demeans in his comments to find an example of my bigotry that would substantiate such a scurrilous charge. Somehow, I don't think an example will come forth, or that the behavior I mention will stop.
No... actually you are being goofy. Now either you are really not that smart, or you are enjoying simply being a troll on the net. If you are not that smart, I understand this but if you are simply trolling then I have to wonder why, when you express so much derision for our site, you continually feel the need to post here constantly, particularly in light of the fact that so far in the last two diaries, you have come out and fully supported the rights of those that advocate the murder of innocents, defended bigots against being called names AND gotten almost everything completely wrong.
Deleteoldschool, the only reason I am letting your posts stay up (despite the requests from a few others to erase them), is that they show the true depths and simple "wrongheadedness" of your entire presence here.
I mean do you really think that no one looked over at the Hatesite to which you contribute, and have seen the craziness and self delusion that is being posted over there, or what you are saying?
So why do we think you are dumb or goofy? You just post here and when people engage you, you simply blow off their comments (as you will with this one) and just keep on going. You make mistakes like you did above telling livosh his comment was "stupid" when in reality it was dead-on. You and the ODS crew do think Hagel is a bad guy that is what livosh said. YET... you just keep on insisting it was a bad comment because you are offended that he used the term ODS.
As for thinking you and the hate crew are the only ones who are aware of what is happening in the MENA with regards to the Jews, that is just silly. Yes, a couple of "Progressive" (at least who call themselves "progressive") buy the "Israel Sux" line but they and their friends in JVP probably represent all of 2% of our community. The Jewish community in the U.S. is simply not as dumb or uninformed as you and the crew seem to think they are.
As far as you being a "bigot", I have explained this time and time again (see the comment above about you just blowing off things and forging ahead).
IF you actually want to have discourse here... then pay attention to the subjects of the diary and stick to them. If people ask you a question just straight up answer it. It's not that hard. Look at sandbox... I don't agree with a lot of what he says... BUT at least he is honest about what he is about and addresses things directly. I have no issue with him posting here because he does that. Look at my dialog with mannie on DKos. mannie is a Likud - Betainu supporter. but so what - I completely disagree with his politics, still he is welcome to post here, again... why? because he actually engages in talk about politics, answers questions directly and is honest in his posting.
If you could do those things... then maybe we could clear up some things, but, I don't think you can. Your posting history both here and at the Hatesite don't indicate that you can.
(livosh1)
ReplyDeleteVolley -- asking him to admit it? Come on. Not a chance. Just like he won't admit that the hate site of which he is a primary contributor encourages, promotes, and defends comments calling for slitting people's throats and bombing heavily populated areas. Again, the hatred, bigotry, and dishonesty are all crystal clear.
What he will do, however, is go back to his pals at the hate site (and, perhaps, also to his buddies who fund his shilling) and brag about how he has vomited all over this blog. And they will say, "well done."
Of course livosh... I am sure that "Goofytown" is all ablaze with self-congratulatory comments. I mean who wouldn't be proud of standing tall for the rights of bigots not to be insulted, advocating killing innocents and cutting political enemies throats?
DeleteThe thing is in all seriousness... who gives a shit what they think? I mean, pretty much advocating the shelling of heavily populated civilian areas for the purpose of terrorizing the civilian population therein renders anything one has to say about anything meaningless. At this point, even saying the "Sky is Blue" has absolutely no relevance because the source is just that polluted.
It's sad but that is simply the way that some people want to "roll".
The funny thing livosh... is that no matter how much hate they spew towards us, they still fill a need to come here, talk about us, and try to troll our diaries / articles. Of course, they could address actual issues presented here but that might be asking to much of a group of people with the collective I.Q and Political Sense of a Coat Hanger.
(livosh1)
ReplyDeleteWell it's very telling that they feel a need to come here and be trolls, but don't feel any need to condemn statements (on their very own hate site) that call for slitting throats and shelling heavily populated civilian areas. It speaks volumes, doesn't it?
Exactly... livosh. And that is why I let them post (well not their posts that are just spam), they can't control themselves and show exactly the level of hatred and bigotry that exists in the extreme fringes of our polity, just as MondoFront or the New I/P at Dkos shows the hatred and extremism at the fringes where the Hard Left meets the Hard Right.
DeleteI would be curious to see if they actually have the knowledge to discuss the issues we bring up here. I doubt it, and hence the trolling. I don't think we will be finding out though.. I would expect just more trolling....
There had been more pushback against statements there than one EVER sees here, and without the vitriol for merely stating disagreement.
ReplyDeleteBut you guys can continue to pat each other on the back and agree how cool and tolerant you are as you engage in disparagement.
oldschool..., seriously man, sometimes you crack me up. You have two or three half hearted comments pushing back against Trudy's insanity and you come to brag about it. Honestly, I thought it was about time but hey at least you did it. I give you credit for that.
DeleteAnyway, were you bored and just thought you would cruise on over here to start some kind of fight over internet protocol? I mean really... what is the purpose of this comment days after the diary is dead, if not to do just that? Just to chuck in some gratuitous shot?
There is another post after this one that actually addresses the issues of coalition building in Israel. Any thoughts on that one? Are you even aware of what's happening? sandbox is/was there this AM to talk about his rather Rightist P.O.V. - I hope he will come back and answer some of the questions that I asked.
You see what you want, but that does not mean you see accurately.
DeleteThe reason I commented was due to the continued disparagement. I did not even have to read what you guys said to notice the smug tone and put downs that are so common at this venue, where there seems an obsession over "hate sites" and "bigots" and "right wing trolls" as you egg each other on. At some point, the labels lose meaning, as they are applied to almost anyone that does not nod in agreement.
You can think it's goofy all you like, but it reminds me of Daily Kos, quite frankly, where the echo is too loud and the toleration for dissent is met with undeserved animosity. Take the criticism being raised here as you like.
As for what is going on in Israeli politics, it is not something I focus on, which is why I don't usually comment on such matters. I have far greater concern about the ignorance of people concerning the conflict and the growing antisemitism and attacks on free expression that exists internationally.
Ok... so you came to be basically be pompous and start something.
DeleteGood to know.