First to Turkish PM Reccip Tayyip Erdogan...
You get a Hearty Fuck You for this. First you say this:
“We should be striving to better understand the culture and beliefs of others, but instead we see that people act based on prejudice and exclude others and despise them,”Then you follow up with this:
“And that is why it is necessary that we must consider — just like Zionism or anti-Semitism or fascism — Islamophobia as a crime against humanity.”Zionism is a crime against humanity??? Really??? The philosophy that Jews have a legitimate right to self determination is akin to anti-Semitism or fascism???? WHAT THE... ?????
Hey Reccip.. How about you, take your own fucking advice and "try to better understand the culture and beliefs of others instead of being a dumb piece of shit and lecturing people about understanding while you spout anti-Semitism. What are you a regular poster at Daily Kos? At least there I might understand you having the I.Q. of a fucking Hamburger.... How the do you even dress yourself in the morning, dumbfuck?
Our second FUCK YOU goes to Empress Trudy and the folks over at Israel Thrives.
In one of their perfect little screeds "Empress Trudy" goes off her meds and advocates for mass murder. What? You don't believe me... Well here you go:
I suggest the IDF surround Gaza with a few dozen towed 155mm howitzers to randomly lob one or two unguided and barely aimed HE rounds into Gaza for each mortar or rocket that flies out. Don't even worry about looking for the Gaza rocket shooters. Just fling 1 or 2 $1,000 plain artillery shells into the most densely packed areas in Gaza. In practice the odds of any one person or family being killed or injured are astonishingly low. But that's not the point. The point is FEAR. And fear is what the need to live with. They need to worry. They need to be afraid.Great fucking idea there Trudy... Lets be just like the murdering pieces of Human Crap in Hamas and Hizbollah and let's lob some artillery into Gaza, what's the worst thing that can happen? The IDF kills a couple of women and children or a few innocent civilians? I mean what are their lives worth anyway? They're only Arabs anyway... Right? (/snark).
And why to the crew at Israel Thrives? After all they didn't write this. Because not even one of them could nut the fuck up and condemn that piece of shit. Just couldn't be bothered.
For all the whining and whinging you people do regarding how evil the Arabs and Muslims are.... You are not one iota better OR even different. You guys just endorsed the murder of civilians so that that the rest of the population can live in fear. Hey idjits... You think the people in Gaza will be cowed by that? You think they are not afraid of the IAF/IDF now? They are, but they don't care. Hamas are fanatics, they just want to kill Israelis. IF they die in some massive shelling attack they believe they get to leave this miserable place and go live with 72 virgins. What kind of strategy is that?
But hey... way to go. You all are complete failures as human beings. 100% complete failures. You... have become what you hate the most... Good going future Jihadis.
:
Well said! --Hey338Too
ReplyDeleteThanks man...
ReplyDelete(livosh1)
ReplyDeleteWow . . . those F.U.'s are richly deserved. Thanks for calling out the hate, volley.
Well and there this is Lumish and that crazed shut-in from down under Geoffff - telling people that they should "hoist the black flag, and start cutting throats". Along with "encouraging their friends"... to do just that... Don't believe me - here you go?
DeleteGeoffff's comment quoting some lunatic from Aussie:
geoffffFebruary 28, 2013 at 2:24 PM
Thank you for this Mike and thank you for cross posting it at the Joint.
I have linked to an open forum at Catallaxy Files
We have friends and we need to encourage them
"I certainly hope not. And if that sort of shit is starting to happen, then it is time to give in to the desire to ‘spit on one’s hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats’. And if the islamists and their left-wing lackeys don’t like that, then tough cheddar."
AND then Lumish' reply:
We have friends and we need to encourage them
Absolutely, but they tend to be "conservatives."
I guess it's full on crazy time over there and when one of them shows up here... what does he say... "Well um, this place is just as bad as us"... What a dumbass... Instead of saying something like "Whoa, that shit is way out of line", he tries to deflect.
It's not as bad over here because no one over here advocates for mass murder or mass ethnic cleansing. AND if anyone did post that it would be erased as soon as I saw it with a denouncement.
But hey when you are part of the fighting Sayyerot 101st Keyboardists... you need something to hang your hat on. I guess crazy time is it.
(livosh1)
DeleteYeah -- the people on that loony hate site continue to show that there is no limit to the depth of their hatred. Slitting throats and flinging artillery into the most densely populated areas? Really? Wow -- they are an awful bunch.
Lol and now they tried to impersonate you.
DeleteNot only are they crazy and awful (I mean supporting killing innocents and using terror) human beings, but apparently they are also dumber than a sack of hammers.
I guess they are reduced to putting up comments that get taken down immediately - makes sense. Heh.
You know livosh... what is funny is that if they just came out and said: "Holy crap, what is that" and maybe confronted their little princess Trudy on that insanity that would have been that. But so far none of them have done that. Instead you have one guy, defending bigotry along with murder of innocents and Terrorism, and a couple more just trolling along.
I guess defending murder hatred, murder, and Terrorism is just that important to some.
That is true... I can't believe that not even one of them would confront the issue of supporting terrorism. Not one of them.
DeleteThey all say.. "Well we didn't see that quote" which is a lie but ok.. let's say they didn't see it... They all saw it now and yet none of them will take a stand anyway. Instead they have one guy standing up for the bigoted community, and the rest reduced to "trolling for dollars".
Oh and they whine about not "seeing every comment" but when some comment goes up at DKos they are all over it. Amazing they can know what some bigot at the G.O.S. says the second that it's posted but at a site where maybe 9 people actively post comments... they managed to miss that gem. I wonder how that happens?
Hateful and stupid... It's a bad combination.
(livosh1)
DeleteAdd "dishonest" to "hateful and stupid," in order to present a more accurate description of them.
Yes, you're right... For the amount of lying they do in each post... Good point.
DeleteSome of the crap people will say...blows my mind.
ReplyDeleteWell raged!
The comment by Erdogan is not at all surprising. He exposed himself as a vicious anti-Semite years ago. But wow! I'm floored to see that statement at Israel Thrives. I hope it is retracted.
ReplyDeleteNot as of yet drfreak. And not only that but it is being defended... No one over there will touch it out of fear of pissing off the base.
DeleteIt's no better here, with the hatemongering and idiotic statements like this:
ReplyDeleteFor all the whining and whinging you people do regarding how evil the Arabs and Muslims are.... You are not one iota better OR even different.
Your brush is much too broad and quickly applied, and the moral piety is pathetic, considering how you equate things, as above, and how you engage in frequent disparagement of others.
Oh keep it up son.. Defend a comment supporting Murder. Your parents must be proud.
DeleteAnd yeah it is better here because no one... supports murdering innocent civilians.
I guess that's what makes you so special, eh? Hey, what's next shelling orphanages?
One other thing, my parents have nothing to do with it. Is that the best you can do, insult my family? It says a lot about you.
DeleteIt says EVERYTHING about you oldschool...
DeleteSO... tell me and everyone else here... Do you or do you not support what Empress Trudy has to say? If you don't then why not denounce it? Of course you won't, because she is just saying what you really believe.
And the offense you guys take is so fucking laughable. It is your page that supports murder and killing innocents not mine and all you can do is cluck at us like an old hen.
Oh and tell me, what is the difference between Empress Trudy's calls for shelling of a civilian population so that they live in fear or Geoffff /Luminsh's calls for "Slitting throats" and the crap posted on various jihadi websites?
Like I said... there you are supporting murder of innocents (because if you didn't you wouldn't be arguing with me, you would be standing up for what is right in your own home). I'm sure your folks would be proud to see what you've become.
What does your calling others cockroaches say about you?
DeleteI am not supporting killing of innocents, and you are a fool for saying something so repugnant. You have a penchant for doing this, telling people what they are saying when it is how you interpret it, usually in stark extremes. It makes me laugh to see how serious you take yourself, and how sanctimonious you are.
You have admitted already that you are too smart and principled to read what is on "jihadi websites." So how would you know the content or substance? I do not subscribe to everything on any site simply because I read it. Nor am I required to engage in object every time I disagree. That would cause me to have to deal with people like you and other internet idiots way more than I care to. But perhaps if you actually acquired a broader spectrum, you would be less prone to call others cockroaches and have a greater understanding of what some actually say.
By the way, did not see any of your peeps call you out for the cockroach remark!
Once more, that you cannot detect "one iota" of difference between a Qaradawi, who openly calls for genocide, and one like a Bat Ye'or, is mind boggling. Will you next say that Fjordman made Breivik do it, and those that think otherwise are as guilty?
I was not addressing the comment Trudy made, which I never read because I was not at the site for several days. I was addressing your own comments, such as the one iota remark and your blanket smear against any "cockroach" that did not rush forth to condemn. To me, her remark was a poor attempt to show there is no equivalency in asymmetrical conflict. And who is she anyway that it matters? The same as Erdogan?
I will stand proudly on my posts and comments against you own any day of the year. I do not ridicule others and am never profane to make my points. To resort to those tactics not only turns people off, but takes away from the argument one makes. That you cannot see what I said, based on your replies, makes you a prideful fool as well.
So... basically you are not going to call Empress Trudy out at a site where you are listed on the masthead as a contributor? How about Mike and Geoffff when they talk about "cutting throats"?
Deleteoldschool, YOU are a contributor at that site, not just casual reader - YOUR NAME is on the site. You are a liar as well... Are you telling me that you didn't read that comment? There aren't that many comments there. Holy shit.
And yes you do support killing of innocents as long as you don't speak up and show your disdain for a comment that calls for SHELLING CIVILIANS SO THAT THEY LIVE IN FEAR. That is called TERRORISM and from your reaction here and your lack of reaction there... it is pretty obvious that you support it.
Oh and thanks for your concern over my "tactics", I'll keep in mind.
Why did you call others cockroaches HERE at your "love" site? Did anyone on your masthead say a word?
DeleteWho else call Jews cockroaches?
You play the double standard game.
Moreover, you appear to have an overblown idea that these people you hate (Yes, you hate them) matter in the geopolitical environment, so that you waste energy righting their wrongs and saving us all from them. That is what makes you a fool.
On the other hand, I understand that it most of this is hot air, and will focus more on the big things.
But I AM a Jew.
DeleteBeing called a cockroach or lower than a cockroach makes no difference. Only a fool would draw such a distinction.
And now you have shown completely that you operate a hate site.
Will those on you masthead speak up to your hate speech?
Ummm we don't have a "masthead"... but I don't think that anyone here would object to calling someone who supports murder, bigotry, and Terrorism lower than a cockroach. And they shouldn't... Just sayin'.
DeleteI have no fear that Trudy will bomb Gaza. I believe that people who threaten to exterminate Jews, however, will act in furtherance of their hatred.
So wait.. if someone advocates for Murder, and Terrorism, shouldn't we take that seriously? Interesting line of thought here. Please do elaborate. I mean you seem to care when the fighting keyboardists of the 101st Jihadi brigades at Daily Kos advocate for violence. Do you think those idiots are real terrorists?
But, do I read you correctly that you are saying as long as someone actually doesn't act on their hateful language, you are cool with that?
Can you be clearer please?
Oh and should I take this to mean that you approve of Trudy's message because you haven't specifically said anything about it. You have made some general comments that you disapprove of murder, and terror, but I have seen nothing regarding THIS specific comment:
I suggest the IDF surround Gaza with a few dozen towed 155mm howitzers to randomly lob one or two unguided and barely aimed HE rounds into Gaza for each mortar or rocket that flies out. Don't even worry about looking for the Gaza rocket shooters. Just fling 1 or 2 $1,000 plain artillery shells into the most densely packed areas in Gaza. In practice the odds of any one person or family being killed or injured are astonishingly low. But that's not the point. The point is FEAR. And fear is what the need to live with. They need to worry. They need to be afraid.
"Who I am" on the top right. Cannot any of those people post here?
DeleteYou already said that Trudy is a "keyboard commando," which evidences that even you do not take her seriously. Give me a break! You have shown that your outrage is false.
Again, silence is not acceptance, no matter that you want it to be. My original comment had to do with what you said, and how you impugned a whole group because of what one person said. You get uptight if someone criticizes militant Islam and accuse them of painting all Muslims as militants. A double standard.
You have shown yet again that you have no less hate inside than the people you call haters.
I have made my point here, and my posts and comments at my web site and elsewhere attest that your characterizations about what I stand for are completely false.
Yep those people can post here but they are NOT listed as "contributors"... I don't think any of them would or should object to my calling bigots lower than cockroaches. But they are welcome to take up the argument should they please.
DeleteI don't know why now, after defending Murder and Terror, you now want to go for the trifecta and defend bigotry as well...
The only point you made here with all of your babbling oldschool is that you support Murder, Terrorism, and now bigotry. Nicely done.
You could have simply said.. "Oh man, I cannot support that comment and Trudy should not have made it", but you didn't. Instead you went on a full scale campaign to try to deflect from the fact that the site you post at (and you are on the "masthead" of) supports murder of innocents AND terrorism.
Well, I should say aside from some brain dead anonymous poster who keeps saying "Jon, take your meds" (for fuck sake anon. at least be original). You should be proud. Your one supporter is a dumber than a sack of hammers coward.
Well done oldschool... well done.
Play semantics if you wish. It does not surprise me ONE IOTA!
DeleteI love it...
DeletePlay semantics if you wish.
Heh... I only pointed out the truth of my comment to your outrageous lie. Sorry. I mean, I can't imagine why someone would want to be accurate in their quoting. Heh....
You know oldschool, there is a thing about shovels and digging... You might want to take that advice.
So simple yes or no... Do you plan on confronting Trudy, or Mike or Geoffffs hatred at your site? Or do you just plan on letting it roll? Simple question oldschool... yes or no.
I can extend that to any who object to my post - any plans of objecting to advocating Murder, and Terrorism?
No I don't. You would just find some other justification to express the hate inside you, and I don't believe you really care. You have already admitted you do not take it seriously.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteSo basically Jay... You have nothing to say about Trudy's call for lobbing shells into civilian areas or Geoffff and Mike's support for cutting throats?
DeleteHmmmm and that is different from what the Jihadi and Far Right Hate sites say... how?
Oh yeah and if you don't answer the questions don't bother posting because I will just delete the comment.
Peace.
You see, Jay, unless one wets their pants here, they are for killing innocent people. The world according to PZ.
DeleteAHAHAHAHAHAHA...
DeleteHere is oldschool above:
I will stand proudly on my posts and comments against you own any day of the year. I do not ridicule others and am never profane to make my points (vb1 emphasis).
SO Mister "I don't ridicule people" then goes on to say:
You see, Jay, unless one wets their pants here (vb1 empbasis), they are for killing innocent people
Heh...
Oh yes AND you are dumb as well. It is not that you have to "wet your pants", frankly your bladder control issues are none of my business but your silence and defense of a site that advocates the murder of women and children... that DOES indicate that you are for killing innocent people.
And still you won't just stand against Trudy and say.. "Hey, you know, that is kind of a fucked up (oh right, you don't cuss) comment. You sure you want to suggest that Israel shell densely packed areas of Gaza?" You couldn't even ask that question. None of you could and that... speaks volumes.
Yep, you got me there. Sometimes it is deserved. I believe that you are wetting your pants here.
DeleteNot to mention that you use ridicule as a norm.
As I said above:
I am not supporting killing of innocents, and you are a fool for saying something so repugnant.
Why do you hear only what suits you?
Did you go there and say something? At least I come here and confront your foolishness.
To say there is not one iota of difference between Trudy, whoever she is, and those that kill Jews is utter foolishness.
Ok two things here...
DeleteYou say:
"I am not supporting killing of innocents....
SO.. if that is the case:
1. Why do you so object to commentary here, that calls out a comment which endorses MURDER and TERRORISM? What is your problem with that?
2. Why haven't you stood up to both Trudy and Mike at a site where you are listed on the front page as a contributor?
Why haven't you done those things? Why do you continue to participate as a principle poster at a site that advocates for that? It's pretty freakin' obvious why. You don't really have a problem with it. I get that. Be proud of who you are.
Yes, there is a difference between Trudy and those who kill "Jews". The first, is the group that advocates for murder. Trudy wants to murder Arabs, the Jihadi's want to kill Jews. The second, is that those who kill Jews, actually go out and do the killing. I don't think Trudy is anything more than a Keyboard Commando.
So tell me oldschool, because you can't seem to answer this... WHAT is the difference between Trudy and those who sit on Jihadi websites ADVOCATING for killing of innocents?
Why is it so hard for you to answer simple questions.
For the same reasons I do not stand up to ALL the hate spewed here.
DeletePeople are entitled to say what they want. I understand it is internet chat, and I am not the self-appointed internet police charged to address every comment that may be distasteful.
The fact is that you wrongly assume that silence is acceptance, when it is only so if one has an obligation to act.
Further, for one who does not need to read what counter-jihadists say, you seem to know a lot about what they say, but you are actually ignorant. Can you provide some examples of people in the counter-jihad movement, in postings, that advocate killing innocents? I have not seen it at all.
Then again, you have stated, explicitly, that I and other Jews you disagree with are lower than a cockroach. How does this make you any better than those you criticize?
Heh... Pretty pathetic response.
DeleteYour silence there is acceptance and you know it. It's ok... But don't get upset when people call you out on it.
As for providing evidence of people in the "counter-Jihadi" movement advocating killing innocents. I just posted two examples from the site that you are listed on the "masthead". Whooops....
And I love this attempt at distraction:
Then again, you have stated, explicitly, that I and other Jews you disagree with are lower than a cockroach. How does this make you any better than those you criticize?
I know, I know, you are not the "sharpest tool in the shed" but I did not say anything about you and "other Jews" being lower than cockroaches. What I said was that bigots (which you are) are lower than cockroaches. Why do you assume that when I am talking about "bigots" I am talking about only Jews? You know, I am Jewish and I object to that a great deal.
So anyway... Still not going to condemn Trudy's explicit call for shelling innocents for the purpose of terrorizing them? How about Mike and Geoffff's call for cutting people's throats? Gonna take a shot at that?
Talk about a pathetic response. All you can resort to are childish insults to cover up your hate speech.
DeleteOnly to you does silence mean acceptance.
Your two examples are a joke. I asked for examples of postings, not comments, from people that are widely conceived as members of the counter-jihad movement.
As I stated in my first remark, you are a fool, and a hateful fool at that!
BWAHAHAHA seriously... is that the best you can do....
DeletePretty funny that you call saying that "bigots" are lower than cockroaches is "hate speech". I mean I guess if you think the community of haters, racists and bigots deserves respect (which apparently you do) then I can sort of see your point. But they don't get my respect. Sorry.
So, I guess from this comment:
Only to you does silence mean acceptance.
you won't be calling out these various examples of supporting violence and terror. Good to know. I guess responding to posts talking about how President Obama is not "Teh most Ebilz" ever is much more important than confronting hatred and advocacy for murder and terror on your own site. Makes sense.
Well Done oldschool, well done.
But I am not a bigot, except in your world of hatred. I am a Jew, however, and your comment was hate speech. Calling any human lower than a cockroach is hate speech. Glad I am not a Tutsi. What makes it more abhorrent is that you label people you do not even know. And you claim I am the bigot?
DeleteThankfully, you are, like Trudy, nothing more than a keyboard commando. But to think that you would say that to any other person makes your "outrage" over her remark transparent.
I hope that anyone who comes here with an open mind will see the double standard being practiced and understand how easy it is for one to hide abuse by accusing others.
Even a bigot is a human being, and your words are indeed hate speech, though it is clear your hatred blinds you to that fact.
DeleteIt would be scary if you were more anything more than a keyboard warrior and a fool, filled with rage, but that is all you appear to be.
Heh... as I said the "bigot community" I'm sure is thanking you for your robust defense. I know bigots around the world appreciate that there is someone to stand up for their hatred.
DeleteI guess after your full throated defense of bigots here, you won't be condemning people that advocate for Murder, and Terrorism after all? I guess that when people call for "cutting others throats" and lobbing shells into crowded areas in order to terrorize them you are silent.
BUT, when someone says that bigots are less than cockroaches.... Now that is something to get pissed off about.
Again... I'm sure your folks are or would be proud of you for this.
I would rather defend a bigot than call someone less than a cockroach, a trait that you and promoters of genocide share.
DeleteYou say:
DeleteI would rather defend a bigot than call someone less than a cockroach...
Of course you would oldschool... that much is obvious. And you are proud of this? Defending hatred and bigotry? Nice.
and this:
a trait that you and promoters of genocide share.
Ummm... Whoa... did you fall on your head or something?
Ok, so now I promote genocide? Pray tell whose genocide do I promote?
Speaking of promoting killing whose site again had this:
I suggest the IDF surround Gaza with a few dozen towed 155mm howitzers to randomly lob one or two unguided and barely aimed HE rounds into Gaza for each mortar or rocket that flies out. Don't even worry about looking for the Gaza rocket shooters. Just fling 1 or 2 $1,000 plain artillery shells into the most densely packed areas in Gaza. In practice the odds of any one person or family being killed or injured are astonishingly low. But that's not the point. The point is FEAR. And fear is what the need to live with. They need to worry. They need to be afraid.
or this:
We have friends and we need to encourage them
"I certainly hope not. And if that sort of shit is starting to happen, then it is time to give in to the desire to ‘spit on one’s hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats’. And if the islamists and their left-wing lackeys don’t like that, then tough cheddar."
So errrr... what were you saying oldschool? You sure that was me promoting genocide?
Actually I have never said anything about "cutting throats" in my life
ReplyDeleteThe comment was that of a non-Jewish commenter in Brisbane on another blog who happens to be appalled by the threat of genocidal antisemitism.
And only an idiot would take it literally. "Hoist the black flag" indeed.
Not so fast geoffff...
DeleteWhile you didn't say anything about "cutting throats" you did endorse it. I mean here are your exact words: http://israel-thrives.blogspot.com/2013/02/professor-ruth-wisse-arab-war-against.html#comment-form
I have linked to an open forum at Catallaxy Files
We have friends and we need to encourage them
"I certainly hope not. And if that sort of shit is starting to happen, then it is time to give in to the desire to ‘spit on one’s hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats’. And if the islamists and their left-wing lackeys don’t like that, then tough cheddar."
Mk50 of Brisbane
28 Feb 13 at 7:45 pm
Thank you Mk50 and I know I risk sounding like an alarmist nut for howling about this. But it is the truth and so be it.
Your words geoffff - exact quote: ",, it is truth and so be it".
Your words.
It is the truth.
DeleteI suggest you listen to what Professor Wise has to say. As I suggested to MK 50 (another academic) and others at Catallaxy Files.
She says nothing about "slitting throats" either. She does however speak the truth.
But geoffff what Professor Wise says is irrelevant IN THIS CONTEXT as we are not discussing her. What we are talking about is what MK50 said regarding "hoisting the black flag and cutting throats".
DeleteFirst you deny it, but now you are saying that it is truth. So... which is it... And what purpose does rhetoric like that serve if you think it is simply hyperbole?
Ok, but I want to ask you a serious question...No internet insults or "trollery".. I have a few questions and I hope that you will give me honest answers.
1. What is it you think I believe relative to the Israeli - Palestinian situation and the Arab-Israeli question in general?
2. What kind of solution do you think I advocate for this conflict?
3. Why do you believe what you believe about me and can you site commentary that would you to these beliefs?
I am asking you to strictly answer those three questions regarding what you really believe. I am curious as to where you think I am coming from.
I've had a another look at that thread and can now see that MK 50's comment was triggered by something else I wrote before talking about Prof Wise which came later
Deletegeoffff:
The Jews are being driven out of Australia.
...
I certainly hope not. And if that siort of shit is starting to happen, then it is time to give in to the desire to ‘spit on one’s hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats’. And if the islamists and their left-wing lackeys don’t like that, then tough cheddar.
What you will be left with will disgust you as much as they do us. More I suspect. Antony Loewenstein and a few dickhead barristers in Melbourne.
Rule .303 will fix that quick enough.
After what we have done?
You’ve been splendid citizens and contributed immensely to this country. Which is just another reason why the traditionally amti-semitic left IS anti-semitic.
You will miss us when we’re gone.
Yes, we would. Which is why applying Rule .303 to those who attack you is a perfectly fine response.
I’ll take those of the Jewist faith over middle eastern muslims any day. A choice between valuable, cultured, civilised human beings and ignorant barbarian savages is an absolute no-brainer.
geofff... at least you answered. I appreciate that... So now I will answer your questions...
DeleteYou say:
I saw a piece I guess written by you under your real name in I think Times of Israel. In it you appeared to be advocating the vile concept of a Muslim "right of return" and suggested that Israel's refusal to countenance such muck was the barrier to peace that Abbas could never get around.
What piece at TOI are you talking about? Can you link to it?
For the record I don't advocate Palestinian "Right of Return" one bit. It is absolutely unacceptable. I don't think Palestinians have any right of return to Israel except for those few people forcibly removed from their homes and even then I don't believe this "right" translates to their descendents.
As for Abbas... he can't get around it because if he struck a deal with the Israelis giving that up he would be dead (literally) within hours. That is political reality,
But that is not my problem. The Palestinians have to realize that they simply are not going to get nor should they get even acknowledgement of "Right of Return".
Then you say:
I believe that you think that Israel should unilaterally withdraw to the green line and that then there will be peace. I believe that would be insane and I have a problem with Diaspora Jews even having the chutzpah to suggest it to the Israelis.
WHAT??? You're kidding, right???? I don't believe that at all. Show me where I said or advocated for that. If you have ever read anything I have ever written geoffff you would KNOW that I support the Olmert plan of 2007-08, where Israel keeps the large settlement blocs (and I lived in Ramat Eshkol btw), in return for a 1:1 land split. Here is the plan I support: http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/haaretz-exclusive-olmert-s-plan-for-peace-with-the-palestinians-1.1970
Now, I used to support the Taba agreements but I think the Palestinians have shown that this is unworkable in their maximalist demands. My thinking has changed over the years.
BUT I have never supported a unilateral pullback to the 1967 Green Line and in any case I would never advocate for pulling away from the Kotel and the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem much less from the neighborhoods leading up to HarHaTzofim?
You have me very wrong geoffff.
So you have some info. geoffff - I have been active in Zionist politics for a good portion of my life and lived in Israel for a year where I played Rugby for the Hebrew U. Club Side. I was V.P. of my campus Hillel, a delegate to the World Zionist Youth Conference (or some such event it was a long time ago) and Foreign Student delegate to the Ma'arach (this was a while ago). while at Hebrew U. Throughout college I was a leader in California Campus AZYF.
My family in Israel was Palmach and Haganah. So, when you say you "know" me geoffff - you have it all wrong.
In Israel, I would be considered "b'Merkaz" (a Centrist) at least that is what my Israeli friends tell me, and if I were a voter there I would have voted (much to my shame) for Tzipi Livni, but now if there were new elections I would support Avodah.
geoffff... I really do appreciate you answering those questions. Out of curiousity... do you think I am JVP or David Harris Gershon? Because if you do... I am neither of those things.
Oh and let me tell you where I agree with you. When you say:
The Palestinians and their racist fascist backers want no borders and no Israelis.
For the most part I agree... at least with the fact that this is what they want.
You did get one thing right though... I do like our President, I think he is a good guy and I think what you believe about him is wrong. But that is something else for another day.
Now you can believe what you like but, my writing stands for itself.
Oh and geofff - though I never agree with rhetoric involving "cutting throats and hoisting the Black Flag" - it is good that you provided context. At least that makes a bit more sense. I appreciate the context.
DeleteStill, I am not sure that, I think that is a way to solve political problems. However, that is Australian politics and I don't know enough about them to get involved. I stick to Israeli and American politics.
Such is life.
If this is a case of mistaken identity I apologise.
Deletehttp://blogs.timesofisrael.com/bibis-balagan/
No geoffff - while I appreciate that - it is not mistaken identity.. I am just not sure how you get that I advocated Palestinian Right of Return from that post.
Deletegeofff I am talking about an issue here in it's realistic sense. But talking about it does not equal advocacy. Just because I say the Palestinians are insisting upon "Right of Return" it does not mean that I advocate for that. It is just the truth of what they are facing within their own polity whether you or I accept that. AND as such, that is a hurdle that any peace talks would face.
At the same time, the PM cannot negotiate to what the Palestinians want because he would face civil war (not too mention that this would be the end of Israel). THAT too is true.
SO the point of that post is that the Prime Minister (at this point) has no good options by "kicking the can down the road" and because he has no clear stated position he has a "Balagan" ("mess" in Hebrew) on his hands.
geoffff - this post is about Israeli internal politics and the challenge that the Occupation creates. But discussing that, doesn't mean that I advocate for anything like you are talking about.
My philosophy is that if you are to solve a problem, it is good to understand all sides of the problem so that while you may not be able fully fix an issue, you possibly can come up with a coherent and lasting solution. To best defeat an enemy one must understand what that enemy is thinking.
Now, if there are facts in that post that you think are wrong from just a purely factual P.O.V. then please let me know.
The only advocacy in that piece is that the P.M. create a realistic and coherent foreign policy, and then build his coalition to fit that - rather than treating this as a rudderless ship drifting from position to position.
I stated my positions of what I believe and what I advocate for above.
And here is a just published article by the same commenter
ReplyDeletehttp://catallaxyfiles.com/2013/03/03/guest-post-mk50-european-fascism-redux/#comment-743738
I know who I would prefer to have in my corner.
MK25 ... or a "progressive zionist"