Here is the release from Gallup
Despite our Presidents love of the Muslim Brotherhood and Democrats and Liberals / Progressives all thinking that "blaming" Israel for all of their own problems is the way to go (/snark if people are really too dumb to think I believe this nonsense spread by the RJC, ODS Crowd, and their minions), the American people's support / sympathy for Israel is at it's highest levels since the Gulf War of 1991.
As Gallup sums it up:
Bottom Line
Americans' sympathy for Israel is at a high-water mark as President Obama travels there for what is being described as a "maintenance" visit, not a high-stakes effort to restart the Palestinian-Israeli peace process. Consistent with attitudes in the past decade, Republicans are significantly more supportive of Israel than are Democrats, although the majority of all party groups tilt toward Israel.
Younger Americans show less favoritism toward Israel than middle-aged adults and, in particular, seniors; however, they are no more likely to favor the Palestinians. They are simply less anchored about whom they favor. Palestinians receive the highest sympathy from Democrats, liberals, and postgraduates, but even among these, support tops off at 24%.While it is true that Republicans and Conservatives do "support' Israel more than Democrats and Liberals - still the levels of support for the Palestinian cause amongst Americans is minimal.
Here is the raw data:
Republicans - 78% Israelis, 5 % Palestinians, 3% both, 6% Neither, 7% No Opinion
Democrats - 55% Israelis, 19% Palestinians, 7% both, 10% Neither, 10% Both
Independents - 63% Israelis, 11% Palestinians, 5% both, 15% Neither, 5% Both
Conservatives - 77%, 5% 3% 9% 6%
Liberals - 54%, 24%, 7%, 9 % 10%
Moderates - 58%, 12%, 15%, 7%, 8%
So really, MAJORITIES of both Democrats and Republicans... Liberals and Conservatives sympathize (or show favor to Israel).
Personally I think it is good to see that as Americans we can across the board support or friends and allies in Israel. We may not always agree with what they do, but, it is comforting to know that the Jewish people have a friend in the American Polity and that we can continue to hope that our polity continues to reflect it's friendship with the Israeli people and their continued fight to maintain their self-determination against those that would see them disappear
This is great news and a great result. Sometimes we can lose perspective after events like yesterday's nasty protest / fight in Oakland, but the fact remains that Israel enjoys broad support across the American political spectrum.
ReplyDeleteWhat happened in Oakland last night?
DeleteSome extremely rowdy anti-Israel people shoving counter-protesters:
Deletehttp://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2013/03/leftist-repeatedly-assaults-pro-israel.html
To reiterate what fizziks said, it shows that support for Israel is not a partisan issue despite what the extremes on both sides of the debate like to claim. Unfortunately, idiots on both sides will keep on spewing their garbage.
ReplyDeleteShabbat Shalom Reuven... Yeah it is unbelievable to see what the fringes say... They are all so sure of themselves. You see that at MondoFront and other hate sites. Like at MondoFront we keep hearing how President Obama is really going to put it to Israel this time (we hear that from the Looney Right as well) with broad support from the American People.
DeleteSure doesn't look like that is happening.
We hear about how the Dems. and Liberals just hate Israel... Apparently 54%-24% is just not a good enough spread.. .Heh... It's just goofy.
Shabbat Shalom, volley.
DeleteI'm wondering how the MondoFront crowd is reacting to President Obama once again laying down the law with Iran. I'm sure many of them are hoping for him to do something so that Iran will retaliate against Israel and do some damage.
Half of them have lost their lunch about it, whining about how Jews run America... the others think he is playing some kind of stealth politics and Chuck Hagel is gonna show them what is up. It is completely goofy over there. They are so baffled they don't know what the hell to do.
DeleteOne in four is too much and shows the extent to which liberals are ill informed, despite that they proclaim to possess more knowledge and intelligence compared to others. It is especially high when one sees it is double that of moderates.
ReplyDeleteWhy such difficulty acknowledging that, compared to others, it is a fact that liberals are more sympathetic? That the spread is the smallest. That, because there are more liberals than conservatives, it becomes disproportionate in real numbers.
Anyone who spends the majority of time with liberals knows that way too many activists accept the Palestinian narrative without understanding the underlying history and context of the situation, that many are quick to demonize Israel when it acts in self-defense, and that many are gullible to Pallywood.
I should add that it is also a fact that the majority of anti-Israel, anti-Zionist activity comes from the left of the spectrum, whether some wish to acknowledge that or not. It is significant despite that most Americans understand better than they do. In this matter it should be a fact, for any Zionist, that conservatives have the better position and progressives need to address more their own.
DeleteBy better position you mean the many that support Israel so that we'll all be in-gathered there, Jesus will make his second coming and then we'll either all convert or we'll be killed and burn in hell? No thank you.
DeleteAs for anti-Israel and anti-Zionist activity, I refer you to men like Pat Buchanan and Ron Paul. While the former is currently marginalized within the GOP and the right, the latter certainly is not. As far as I'm concerned, you can take your smears, and your apologia for the right, elsewhere.
The better position is to have more sympathy and support Israel more than the Palestinians, which conservatives do, in much larger numbers.
DeleteThe Jesus stuff you mentioned is laughable, not to mention smacks of bigotry.
Paul and Buchanan are much less influential among their group, and the numbers prove it, despite what you say.
You are living in a lie. If you hang out with liberals it is clear that what I said is true, and these numbers bear this out.
At least I can see and try to change what my progressive friends know and believe, rather than blind myself to reality, or to ell people to go away or call them apologists. I understand that it is uncomfortable to deal with the apparent.
And for your information, I live in one of the bluest places there is and have for many years.
DeleteEverywhere I go, if the subject comes up, you hear no pro-Israel remarks in this environment, among the singular crowd, because to stand for Israel is just not done and might even leave a stigma.
@ Reuven... the messianic portion of that is smaller than the simple fact that most people just like and support Israel because they are not Arabs. Well that and they remember the pictures of Palestinians dancing in the streets celebrating 9/11 and supporting Saddam Huessein.
DeleteBut make no mistake about it, that support is not the informed support of people who bother to get the facts. Just look at what passes for commentary on Rightist sites regarding the President and Israel. It's freakin' nonsense and they get people to believe it because all they do is read Right Wing websites and listen to FAUX News.
The truth of the matter is that liberal voters ARE more informed and still they break over 2-1 for Israel. That tells me only good things.
Ignorance and mental laziness is a problem all across the political spectrum.
DeleteIf we want to start citing statistics, how many self-identified American Republicans / conservatives disbelieve evolution, or think the Earth is 10,000 years old? I'm sure the numbers are in the 60-70% range for the former, and maybe 50% for the later. How many think Saddaam Hussein had something to do with 9/11? Again, it's going to be northward of 50%. A good 25% believe, against all evidence, that Obama was born in Kenya.
The point here is not that Republicans / conservatives are largely stupid, it is that people are largely stupid. People are also largely ignorant, lazy, and selfish, and all of that is regardless of political affiliation. So, honestly, it is utterly pointless for you to keep citing the intellectual flaws of some liberals. Yes, they are stupid, but it is not because they are liberals.
That is is very well said fizziks.
DeleteI think is important to differentiate between "stupid" and "uniformed" or conversely "smart" and "informed". They are different.
I think your point here is reasonable.
(livosh1)
ReplyDeleteMost Americans' sympathies are with Israel, and (at the same time) Americans also re-elected President Obama.
Heh. The extremist haters on both sides of the I/P issue must be crapping in their pants.
Of course they are... Just look above. I guess 55-24% pro-Israel means that we liberals really hate Israel because we are not 78-5%... It's just goofy. Of course, they try to blow off the reasons behind support, some of which is genuine but most of which is either messianic in nature, OR simply that conservatives don't like Arabs more than they don't like Jews.
DeleteI grew up in a very Red area of a very Blue State, still have a lot of friends that are Conservative and those two things are what most of them think.
I will take that 55% over the 78% any day of the week because it is an informed 55% as compared to the 78% who believe any lie that the RJC decides to tell.
It's not a matter of hating Israel. That is a silly way to frame it. It is that 24%, much more than moderates and conservatives, are more sympathetic to a Palestinian narrative full of deception, and they are so smart they cannot even tell.
DeleteIt's a matter that other progressives allow such a large percentage, relatively, to persist among them and who believe any lie that the Palestinians decide to tell.
Can't you figure out what it is about without misstating it or trying to justify, solely to protect an obvious weakness that liberals have and need to address?
I have lived in red states, too, and your depiction of conservatives is far from accurate and tinted by your own deep bias. I suggest you do not really know what they are about or what concerns them, and more than their partisans know about you.
It's not a matter of hating Israel. That is a silly way to frame it.
DeleteI agree, it is a silly way to frame it. Unfortunately that IS how Conservatives and Republicans frame it. Don't you read their blogs? I mean have you ever actually read the blog that you are on the "masthead" of?
It is that 24%, much more than moderates and conservatives, are more sympathetic to a Palestinian narrative full of deception, and they are so smart they cannot even tell.
I never said that liberals were so "smart"... I just said that they were more informed. And yes, it is sad that such a relatively high % of people would be more sympathetic to the Palestinians but again remember that many of those people are sympathetic out of a desire to remedy the Occupation and grant the Palestinians statehood. NOT out of hatred for Jews. I agree that these sympathies are misguided in this case but I think they are formulated not (for the most part) out of hatred.
t's a matter that other progressives allow such a large percentage, relatively, to persist among them and who believe any lie that the Palestinians decide to tell.
"allow"?? Being Liberal or Progressive is not a club you belong to, it is a set of beliefs about politics.
I have lived in red states, too, and your depiction of conservatives is far from accurate and tinted by your own deep bias. I suggest you do not really know what they are about or what concerns them, and more than their partisans know about you.
You see, you didn't even read my comment. I have never "lived" in a Red State.. I lived in a community that was very Red in a very Blue State. Most of my friends in real life are moderate to conservative. I know a lot about them, and enough to know what they are about. But just because I know them and like them doesn't mean I agree with them.
I constantly have people, whether I am on the gun range or at martial arts saying things like "I can't figure out why you are a liberal, I don't get it". And then we laugh as we argue about politics. Generally they are good hearted people with some serious blind spots when it comes to humanity, they see things in localized, micro terms.. and that is where we disagree. So please... save your lectures about what I do or don't believe about conservatives.
Actually, not supporting a cause enough is different that "hating" something, which is what you said. I read the blogs of both sides, I suspect more than you do. You are simply wrong in what you say and it serves no purpose to mischaracterize.
DeleteBeing more "informed" implies being more smart. I was not speaking about you, actually, but many, many liberals who, in private, crow about how "informed" they are and how "stupid" the other side is.
I did not say that sympathy for Palestinians means hate for Jews, but that the sympathy of the "informed" is due to ignorance. It is ironic for groups so "informed" to rely on information provided by people and groups that actually do hate Jews.
Being liberal is BOTH a set a principles and a group. Many identify with the group without even knowing the principles.
If you grew up in a red area of a blue state then you lived among conservatives, and that was my point, and the context you were providing as well. If you want to quibble over words and not substance, your choice. The fact is that the characterizations here, including yours, about conservatives among others are often way overboard. Your stereotype that they are micro is full of holes. And liberals also have a blind spots about humanity, much more than we like to believe. It is far easier to notice outside the echo chamber.
See.... here is where we differ. I don't think of smart and informed as synonymous. I think that being informed and I mean "fully informed" is smart, but I know people that are smart yet not informed on this or other particular subjects.
DeleteMy personal feelings about conservatives on this subject are NOT that they are "stupid" but that that they are willfully misinformed which IS a stupid thing to be. I don't feel that conservatives look beyond immediate goals nor are they particularly consistent in their judgements. I do read conservative blogs about Israel and I find them all severely lacking in both substance and truthfulness.
For instance, Barak Obama NEVER suggested pulling back to the 1967 lines as a final part of a peace plan. He said over and over again that he favored negotiations BASED on 1967 lines with land swaps and Israeli security needs. Why is it then that conservatives can't seem to be bothered to learn this simple fact?
Also, when conservatives talk about progressive Zionists as "blaming" Israel for problems and feeling Israel somehow "deserves" any treatment at the hands of the Arabs - what the hell is that. Maybe some misguided progressives feel that way, but, I don't know many (or any) progressive Zionists that think like that. It is just pure idiocy to claim that... YET, conservatives do just that.
The people that are conservatives that I know are generally really good people on a micro level. Frankly, I enjoy their company. BUT they have very short sighted politics often based on reactions and micro thinking as opposed to politics that reflect initiative and macro problem solving. Just because I abhor their politics doesn't mean I hate them but it does mean that I can and do make fun of their politics. WHICH btw, they toss at me as well.
The thing is oldschool, they are honest where they come from. I can respect that in a person. My boss, (who is a good friend) is a hardcore evangelical Conservative Christian. We go at it all day long, and usually he won't answer specifics on politics but he counters with standard Rush talking points about liberals. Outside of politics he is a great guy and in many ways I actually admire a lot of things about him. More than that... I trust and respect him.
That said.. the guy has the politics of a Neanderthal and I wouldn't vote for him for park garbage superintendent.
Regarding smart vs. informed, the context is obvious and in that context you admit: I think that being informed and I mean "fully informed" is smart." I don't get why it is necessary to state what you did.
DeleteConservatives are no more willful than liberals. Of course you cannot discern this. Get out of your echo chamber.
Liberals blame and ridicule conservatives for everything wrong under the sun. Who are you trying to kid? And you think that Progressive sites are more honest when discussing the Middle East? That they do not allege that conservatives are bloodthirsty racists that clamor for war? I hear this all the time, not just on blogs but when liberals speak in the comfort of each other. Again, who are you trying to kid?
It does not absolve conservatives that do the same type of thing. But liberals are actually less honest about all this because their actions too often fail their stated principles to be tolerant and to care for fellow humans and human rights. There is almost nothing more pathetic than lip service. Like when so many liberals say that Israel is entitled to self-defense, but....
The idea is to separate the wheat from the chaff. There's more than enough chaff from both sides, even from Obama, who plays the game with the best of them, even if his partisans are unable to acknowledge that fact. To pretend otherwise, that only Republicans act poorly, is NOT to be informed. Each side has something to offer in finding solutions and each side can learn from the other. But each side is too busy trying to tear the other down, and it makes things worse for all.
Once more, I believe that liberals are quite uninformed when it comes to Israel and antisemitism, which is why so many adopt the Palestinian narrative of Occupation. Ask yourself why this is so, and why so many believe that to speak up about Arab hypocrisy and human rights abuses committed in the name is Islam is "racist," rather than informed? When more liberals work to change this dynamic through education of their brethren, the fight against anti-Israelism will be less difficult.
SPECIFIC RESPONSES PART I
DeleteRegarding smart vs. informed, the context is obvious and in that context you admit: I think that being informed and I mean "fully informed" is smart." I don't get why it is necessary to state what you did.
It was very necessary to state that because despite your claim that it is "obvious" you kept changing the framing of the commentary. I kept stating that liberals are generally more informed, and you kept asking why I thought liberals were "smarter". If it is "obvious" then why did you keep misinterpreting me?
Conservatives are no more willful than liberals. Of course you cannot discern this. Get out of your echo chamber.
Err... I gave specific examples of continual conservative distortions. This is simply gratuitous. I see constant distortion on the conservative side and much less on the general Liberal side. I gave examples. Are their distortions on the Liberal side? Of course, and those SHOULD be called out, but those creating distortion on the conservative are the last people that have any authority to be the ones calling it out as they engage in the same tactic while whining about Liberal distortion.
Liberals blame and ridicule conservatives for everything wrong under the sun. Who are you trying to kid?
This is irrelevant to this discussion and just another general statement tossed in, to distract from the discussion (actually this is just one of many in this post).
And you think that Progressive sites are more honest when discussing the Middle East?
On the whole yes I do. HOWEVER, I would say that commentary sections on edited Progressive sites can to be just as dishonest as conservative sites. I do believe that I have seen much more honest reporting on mainstream Liberal sites about everything including I/P.
That they do not allege that conservatives are bloodthirsty racists that clamor for war? I hear this all the time, not just on blogs but when liberals speak in the comfort of each other. Again, who are you trying to kid?
No, they don't. You may take it that way but generally they don't. HOWEVER, who is it in this case (I/P) that is advocating for bombing Iran now? Liberals or conservatives? Who is it that wanted the U.S. to stand with the brutal Mubarak dictatorship just because it might be better for Israel? Liberals or conservatives? See, here are specifics oldschool. Can you address those?
But liberals are actually less honest about all this because their actions too often fail their stated principles to be tolerant and to care for fellow humans and human rights.
This is sort of funny oldschool... Liberals I would say are far more honest than conservatives in their political outlook. How many conservatives voted for the Republican party in the U.S. - a party that supports inclusion of church and states, repealing of civil rights laws, a party that supports a number of actions against women, YET complains about what women in other nations (Egypt) are forced to endure? I mean complaining about what happens in other nations while voting for a party that would outlaw abortion, or cut back on civil liberties here in the U.S. is a tad disingenuous, wouldn't you say? (Don't worry... I actually don't think you will touch this question with a twenty foot pole much less answer it for all to see here).
SPECIFIC RESPONSES PART II
DeleteEach side has something to offer in finding solutions and each side can learn from the other. But each side is too busy trying to tear the other down, and it makes things worse for all.
Maybe... But out of curiousity what do exactly do conservatives offer here? I am serious, not that you will answer, but, really exactly what do they bring to the table?
Once more, I believe that liberals are quite uninformed when it comes to Israel and antisemitism, which is why so many adopt the Palestinian narrative of Occupation.
Totally disagree... accepting certain realities regarding the Occupation and the Palestinian side of the story does not mean that people accept the Palestinian narrative. The Palestinians have certain truths to their story that should be recognized and dealt with. But just because that may be the case doesn't mean that one accepts their "narrative".
As for anti-Semitism... I don't think many liberals accept anti-Semitism. They may not accept your frame of reference for Israel, they may not accept what the Israeli Right declares as necessary for one to believe, but it doesn't mean that they are anti-Semitic. Sure, some are... just like some (if not many) conservatives are but, that is a function that societies that are not Israel have a certain amount of anti-Semitism lurking beneath the surface.
Ask yourself why this is so, and why so many believe that to speak up about Arab hypocrisy and human rights abuses committed in the name is Islam is "racist," rather than informed?
This has been answered 10000x but apparently those answers have been ignored... SO here is answer 10001. Pointing out Arab hypocrisy and human rights abuses committed in the name of Islam is not racist.
What is bigoted is continually pointing out while ignoring everything else. It is the same with those pointing out Israeli abuses continuously and ignoring the good things that Israel does. You know it, I know it, and everyone else here knows it, there is an agenda behind doing such things and what is maddening is when people deny it. It is two sides of the same thing. When one claims to support ideals, they should support those ideals for all sides including their own not just hold the other side accountable but ignore ones own side. That is what determines bigotry. Whining about the rights of women and LGBT people in Egypt but supporting and voting for Republicans here in the U.S. is hypocritical at best and should be seen for the bigotry it is... Just as supporting Palestinian rights to self-determination but not supporting Jewish rights for the same thing. It is outright bigotry.
When more liberals work to change this dynamic through education of their brethren, the fight against anti-Israelism will be less difficult.
And here is where "culture warriors" ultimately fail. First of all one has to define "anti-Israelism", to your friends on your other site you have an active supporter (by his own admission) of Otzma L'Yisrael a reincarnation of the racist Kach party, they consider anything left of Yair Lapid (and probably Lapid himself) as anti-Israel. You should see what they think about Ehud Barak.
No.. what would make the fight against "anti-Israelism" much less difficult, is if you folks on the Hard Right here in the U.S. actually knew anything about Israel and it's policies. THAT would make things a lot less difficult, because then you could answer from a fact based narrative rather than with sweeping narratives that merely avoid or distract from the point.
I've said it before and I'll say it again:
DeleteThe far and away #1 thing that would stem the creeping tide of anti-Israelism on the American left would be for Republicans to stop trying to use Israel as a wedge.
Because of the current extreme partisan adversarial nature of American politics, when an issue gets identified with one party, many in the other party decides they have to be opposite. Rather than touting the historically bi-partisan nature of Israel support, Republicans are now trying to make it their issue, and there is a danger that they will succeed, again because of how American politics is so adversarial right now. Israel should not be a wedge in American politics, period.
@ fizziks... This is very important and very well said.
DeleteI don't think that Republicans can make it their issue though due to the fact that I can't see American Jews lining up with their odious domestic policies.
The only place it works is for those whom Israel is the most important issue out there and who think that the Right Wing version of what Israel should look like is the best option there is, and frankly if that is the case, then making Aliyah would be far and away a better option because if Israel is more important to them than their own country... they should live in Israel. .
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteAre you saying that anti-Israelism on the American Left would significantly diminish if Republicans did not point out, accurately, the extent of anti-Israelism on an American Left where significant numbers adopt the Palestinian narrative, for whatever reason?
DeleteI interpret this also to say that the American Left is only anti-Israel because Republicans are pro-Israel, and not because the former see Israel as America's puppet, an outpost of imperialism, led by a supremacist group. That they really like Israel, but have to pretend for the greater good beating down Republicans?
I listen to those that blame Israel for every wrong, and this has an echo like the Republicans are being scapegoated in a similar way.
As for the detailed responses above, I stopped reading. I understand that you see it as all one side's fault (not yours), and the other side, the informed side, is the correct side. I subscribe to a much different theory, one that sees shared blame, shared inability to hear, and shared ability to demonize. I further believe that many of the informed are far from informed when tested on their information, and that their positions are therefore suspect, but they would never know it inside their echo chambers.
Based on the above, to go in circles would be gratuitous.
And there we have it... Reason # 3782 just why no one here takes conservatives, Republicans and you in particular seriously.
DeleteAs for the detailed responses above, I stopped reading.
Of course you did. Because every single one of your suppositions were off base and rather than actually learn something, you simply retreat to the comfort of your echo chamber and continued generalizations. Why deal with the inconvenient facts when you can simply ignore them.
AND then in the same paragraph you complain about people lacking information YET... when directly answered it is YOU who refuse to read or get information.
The irony here almost burns. It is absolutely "Rovian".
As for your misunderstanding of fizziks comment, well that I can now chalk up to simply standard conservative and Republican unwillingness to actually face an issue. I was very clear about what I thought would cure "anti-Israelism" (nice new phrase btw), fizziks did as well. YOU and your fellow Republicans should actually read what people mean rather than reaching deep into the netherworld of your imaginations to come up with some made up answer.
Oldschool:
Delete"Are you saying that anti-Israelism on the American Left would significantly diminish if Republicans did not point out, accurately, the extent of anti-Israelism on an Americian Left where significant numbers adopt the Palestinian narrative, for whatever reason?"
Yes. Again, please familiarize yourself with the current state of American political discourse, especially among the majority of voters on all sides who are not particularly well informed or engaged. Many people on both side simply have to be the opposite of the other side. If Republicans keep pushing the narrative that they are pro-Israel and Democrats are anti-Israel, then sure enough many people who are Democrats will decide they should be anti-Israel. It will be the exact same thing that happened with individual health insurance mandates, which as you may recall, were the brain child and favored policy of Republicans until Obama decided that he liked them, at which point most Republicans decided that they had to be the opposite.
"I interpret this also to say that the American Left is only anti-Israel because Republicans are pro-Israel, and not because the former see Israel as America's puppet, an outpost of imperialism, led by a supremacist group. That they really like Israel, but have to pretend for the greater good beating down Republicans?"
Yes to the first part. Many on the left are anti-Israel only because it has become identified (in some circles) as a left-right wedge issue. But no, they don't really like Israel in secret. It's more like they don't really know many facts, since they don't think about these issues very much, but if they perceive that it is a partisan issue, hyper-partisans will decide that they have to come down on the opposite side than Republicans.
(livosh1)
ReplyDelete@volley... Yup, even though the margins are pretty overwhelming by any reasonable standard, we see (predictably) yet another example of the typical faux right-wing hysteria that ignores reality. Oh well . . . there's no law against being silly.
Agreed... If there were, just look at CPAC... Holy crap, those folks would be in jail for life. ;-)
Delete