In the recent book The Finkler Question, author Howard Jacobson explores the current politics of antisemitism in the UK. The character Professor Finkler is a Jewish philosophy professor who is obsessed with being publicly "ashamed" about Israel in order to stay trendy. However, due to a culmination of events, this national figure has a shocking pro-Israel outburst during a conference. The outburst is in response to a woman who segues from anti-Zionism to antisemitism one too many times, as such anti-Zionists tend to do. It is a very interesting scene.
In a case of life imitating art, I was reminded of the whole thing in the protracted outburst of Norman Finkelstein against the BDS movement that has just come to light. A video which BDS didn't want to get out is making the rounds, in which Finkelstein is being interviewed by some BDS person and absolutely rips into their entire movement for 30 long, awkward minutes.
For a bit of background, Norman Finkelstein is a notorious Israel-bating figure, who for some time was faculty at a number of schools. He has expressed solidarity with Hezbollah and Hamas, criticized what he calls the 'Holocaust industry', and called Israel a "lunatic state". So he's like an extreme - and much less successful - version of the fictional professor Finkler. Even the names are eerily similar.
In short, Finkelstein is almost a prototypical Jewish antisemitic deranger, in the mold of Gilad Atzmon. And yet in the recently obtained video, he savagely calls BDS to task for many of the exact same things that pro-Israel commenters, neutral observers, and many others have over the years! Specifically, Finkelstein:
1) repeats over and over that BDS is trying to play it cute but fooling nobody about their ultimate plans for Israel itself - not the occupied territories - and the Jewish people living there.
2) repeats that BDS is alienating mainstream people and has achieved no success
3) repeats that BDS is "a cult" so many times that I lost count
4) takes BDS to task for its selective use of 'international law'
It is absolutely fascinating to watch the whole video, and also to wonder what caused this seeming abrupt direction shift for Finkelstein. Watching the video, as it focuses relentlessly on his face, he also seems generally disturbed, ready to be hauled off to a mental institution at any minute. He readily admits several times that he was in his own "Maoist cult" in his youth, and alternates between righteous indignation and whiny self-pity.
I would hesitate to say that Finkelstein has had a change of heart in regard to Zionism, the Jewish state, and antisemitism, but it seems that something has pushed him over the edge in the same way that something pushed Professor Finkler over the edge, at least temporarily.
I will say this to BDS and like-minded folks. If you are too deranged for even Norman Finkelstein, it is time to pack it in!
Now of course the accusations have started to fly about Finkelstein being a Zionist plant the whole time, about how he betrayed people, and is a Jew anyway so why is he allowed to say anything. For once, it is time to sit back and enjoy.
Update: All Youtube versions of the video appear to have been removed for "copyright violation". However the video at the link above is still available.
I'd like to say that he's developed a conscience and is starting to realize his allies for what they are. However, that will require sustained words and actions from him. Most likely, I expect that he will realize what he has done and modify his behavior accordingly so that all the antisemites and derangers can pat him on the head and tell him what a good Jew he is.
ReplyDeleteDid you watch the video though? That is going to be hard to walk back or apologize for. It is hard to claim quoting out of context or clarification when you go to town for 30 minutes uninterrupted.
DeleteNo he hasn't he is still an arrogant blowhard.
DeleteJust look to heathlander and you will see Finkelstein cloned. He still supports a "Faux 2SS" with one state of Palestine and one State that is called Israel but has unlimited RoR. He sees this as a stepping stone to a federated state. BUT, he thinks the 1SS is not a realistic goal as of now, so he is taking things piece by piece.
Don't be fooled. One thing Finkelstein is, is consistant. He is not coming at this with a conscience - he views BDS as a "tactic" and he thinks unless it is fixed it is not a tactic he can use.
They've taken the video down at YouTube because of a "copyright claim."
DeleteDamn that's too bad. The video was extremely interesting. I hope someone has a bootleg copy somewhere.
DeleteSomeone is clearly quite interested in preventing this from seeing the light. I seriously wonder who would have the copyright claim on this.
Deletevolleyboy1 has it exactly right. Finkelstein doesn't care about the BDS-ers because antisemitism is so mainstream in their movement that they actually stimulate far more sympathy for Israel than antipathy. If they were even modestly competent, he wouldn't have a single harsh word to say about them.
DeleteBDS: We're like the Republican Party. The more you see us, the more you dislike us.
DeleteYep wiscmass... he is just pissed that they suck at life. Sad to see really.
DeleteBWAAHAHAHA! I actually watched the video first at Mondofront because that is where it was linked from Divest This. But then I found it at the Huffington Post monitor. That is the first time I have clicked over to Mondo since we got it banned from DKos.
ReplyDeleteBDS Wins(tm) once again! ;-P
ReplyDeleteIs this along the lines of "It's Good News for John McCain"?
DeleteIndeed. Now be prepared for bad dancing in response, coming soon to a small college town near you!
DeleteWell, when they do, just drown them out with chants of "U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!" or sing the Star Spangled Banner or chant "Am Yisrael Chai" or sing Hatikvah. :-)
DeleteI didn't read the comments. I'm eating and want to keep the contents in my stomach. Did they now call him a YB/NU/Likud fascist plant who opposes the wonderful idea of terrorist organizations having nuclear weapons and is learning a martial art designed for the express purpose of oppressing innocent bunnies?
ReplyDeleteI did not see that he has changed. He did say he supports BDS in theory. It's just that he believes that living in an echo chamber masks reality, and that BDS is kidding itself if it thinks that people in the real world do not see through it, so long as it will not accord Israel the same rights under law that it seeks for Palestinians.
ReplyDeleteIf they of the BDS continue to trash him, I suspect he will only become more rigid in his positions.
As I said in my blog, I still think his interpretation of international law is flawed when it comes to occupation, settlements and boundaries.
I agree he has probably not changed. But it is noteworthy when someone within the anti-Zionist / antisemite bubble takes others within that bubble to task for things that we outside of the bubble also take them to task for.
DeleteAbsolutely, which is why I posted this yesterday and said:
DeleteIn any event, the video is good watching. I recommend it for the brief moment where one unexpected sees fit to reveal underlying truth against those mainly of his own persuasion. He states, explicitly, that if BDS is a rights based organization, it must recognize ALL rights, including Israel's rights as a state to exist under international law. But BDS refuses to do so, among other things, and the message he conveys corroborates all those who claim BDS is extremist and out of touch with reality.
Ix-nay on the lant-pay stuff! It's more fun to keep them guessing...
ReplyDelete::evil grin::
Wait, it's not public knowledge that the Secret Zionist Controller and Chief Elder of Zion and Keeper of the Protocols is not in a secret compartment under the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel with a direct line to Wall Street and London to manipulate the events of the entire world? ;-)
ReplyDeleteWell they sort of went there - but never like I got accused of being a syncophant for Netanyahu (and the crazies at an ODS blog call me a syncophant for the President - I wish these guys would figure their shit out and let me know if I am a rightist or some progressive dupe)... But yeah - I guaratee he is learning Martial Arts just to oppress the Bunnies - just like someone else I know... well....
ReplyDeleteHere is a link to a video of the highlights:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iggdO7C70P8&feature=player_embedded
good call. Thanks for the link.
DeleteSo what is up with your boy Karma? In the same breath as decrying "Stalinist tactics" he bans people who disagree with him, and then questions their loyalty as Jews? Is he trying to kill irony?
I think there is blame to go around. I have been censored right here at this site, and maligned with inaccurate labels, except to the minds of accusers that I find prejudived.
DeleteI must also say, have there not been questions of peoples' loyalty to America, and suggestions that perhaps Jews should leave? Among other things.
In other words, it is not as if all this occurred in a vacuum.
I think it's an overstatement to imply Stalinism on either side, and I asked that he remove what was, to me, an overreaction. And he did! He will have to defend his reasons for the ban and removal of comments, if he chooses. People may not like or agree with his views, including me sometimes, but I find that overall he treats people with more respect than many others I have experienced along the way.
I further think there has been a fairly open environment for actual discussion of issues at Israel Thrives. This blog, the "progressive" one, not only started to censor different ideas, but wrongly conflated difference as "delusion" and akin to Republicanism against Obama. I think these acts belie the underlying basis of being progressive.
In other words, make the case. Don't impugn the character or intelligence of others and call yourself a progressive.
So, I ask you, what is up here? Perhaps you should further join the conversation elsewhere and judge for yourself where liberal principles are most applied in practice, and not in name.
I am going to be charitable here os and tell you that after reading this twice at best I need a shovel to get through this post. You could fertilize a field the size of Manhatten with this.
DeleteFirst of all, there is simply no blame to go around. Mets did nothing to malign Karma BUT Karma told Mets that he could not be "trusted" to support the Jewish people because he would not support some political screed regarding the deaths in the Fogel family. It was simply hateful and inappropriate on Karma's part. As far as my "banning" goes... Meh... Being banned from a hate site is not the worst thing that has ever happened to me - to say the least.
As far as being "maligned".. Bullshit. You are certainly no Liberal or Democrat oldschool and you sure as hell fool no one. You sit there while people say that Democrats are "G-dless" people or when people are told NOT to vote for the Democratic Party and you make ZERO comments saying: "well hold on here". Instead you make vague statements like: "well maybe President Obama really isn't a friend to Israel or Jews" (paraphrased). Anyway, you may fool some but you don't fool many of us with this. WHEN you are as strident against the bullshit on the Right as you are about it on the Left then, I might not doubt you. But so far, no.
As for people questioning loyalty of "Jews" or anything else. That is all in your head. No one is saying whether Jewish people should live here or not, that is ENTIRELY your framing. Entirely. I simply asked that if Israel is one's main issue in a domestic election then one might be more comfortable living in Israel. I did NOT say that they should leave the country. So let's get that straight right now.
This site is a progressive site. Your comments were removed for the nature of personal (and lying) attacks. If you want to speak to issues without lying or exaggerating or making personal comments, you are welcome to say. If you feel a need though to continue along that path then your comments that offend will be removed.
I don't care if you advocate for conservative principles but do it on the merits of your advocacy not on "well don't censor my hateful comments". End of story.
Not worth the effort to engage you, except to say that I disagree with your rendition of events and characterizations. End of story.
Deleteoldschool, you are applying a transparently ridiculous hypocritical double standard.
DeleteYou are against 'censorship' of dissenting viewpoints very virulently here, and in a very milquetoast way on Karma's blog. Not to mention that Karma took an attack to Volley and Reuven that was way more personal than anything they have ever done here.
I fairness oldschool I cannot see your response here and I did not delete it. But I did get it on my email notification that it was made. I can't see it here though but, again that is through no doing of my own.
DeleteHere is what you wrote:
I left a public comment stating that I disagreed with what was done.
I did not see all of the comments in both directions, but let's not forget the context. My beef is with one individual, by the way, who seemingly cannot make a comment without being demeaning.
Here, it was my own views that were censored and I know the content that was offered and state categorically none of them was improper or gratuitous.
Indeed, it was even said that I begged for one to be censored, a complete misrepresentation.
What more do you suggest I do?
I cannot answer for fizziks but I think everyone would like to simply have you admit what we all know and move on from there. Oh and stop bullshitting us. You know full well what was said yesterday at Karma's Blog (you know, the one you are on the "Masthead").
As for your comments here - they were gratutious and insulting and yes actually you did say - "Well then censor me because I am going to write what I like" (or something to that degree). SO.. I granted your request.
What should you do in the future? You see the post in the Romney diary. Respond like that. Simply make your case. You did that in that diary and I responded. We are both civil and all is well.
As I have repeatedly said.... It's ok if you are a Republican. Just be straight up. You will find myself and others not so harsh if you would just be that honest.
I said I did not know. Why are you implying I am a liar? Why do you claim I am dishonest? What do you mean that I should admit what we all know? Why is that invariably your way to engage in discourse?
DeleteI said specifically that I did not find the comments directed to me, that you offered through Mets, objectionable. I referred only to what I saw. I may be a contributor there, but I only have control over what I post, not the comments or otherwise. Because I contribute does not wed me to whatever one says at the site, either.
Your recollection sucks. I did not say what you said above. I said that if you wanted to carry out your threat to censor, that was your decision, but it would not intimidate me to change what I wanted to convey, which was NOT gratuitous, no matter what you say. I did NOT request you to censor me, either. That is a flat out falsehood! You see, I DO remember. It's hard to forget when someone with power acts arbitrarily against you.
I always make my points. You just cannot accept them with any grace. I do not write diaries that unnecessarily call people "deranged" or claim in responses that there is an an attempt to turn a site into a "right-wing shithole." These are the types of things YOU do and say, not me.
Your last paragraph is just another example of how careless you are about the facts. I do not presume to call you a Republican, though I find your tactics emulate them, particularly by the intolerance and the way you demean people.
You think you are such a great Democrat, but I find you the opposite. I suspect that I have operated in Democratic circles far longer than you, and at a much higher level, and I have never been loathe to take on Establishment figures on any level when I find they are inappropriate in words or deeds. That said, in my opinion, your way gives us all a bad name.
AHAHAHAHA I am leaving this screed up as an example of: "When Republicans lose their cool"
DeleteAnyway, I did not imply you are lying. I am straight out calling you are a liar. Pretty simple there really.
What should you admit? That you are a Republican and you are totally supportive of the Republican agenda and that your whole presence here is to counter anything positive at all regarding Jewish voters and President Obama.
Ok... now as far as the stuff at the Hate Site. Well, you are on their "masthead" so you have some responsibility. What we all notice is that you don't take on their mis-information and shilling one bit. BUT you are here and vociferously complaining about everything one of us types that is positive regarding Democrats and President Obama. I mean it is pretty easy to see what your agenda is. You would be a lot more convincing if you actually countered the hate, lies, and misinformation spewed by Karma and Co. with the same level of effort that you put into this place. But... you don't.
LOL you write plenty of comments that are outright false and accuse people of many things. Further, you are silent when your friends write things like "anyone who supports Democrats this cycle must be crazy". You may think that you make your points but really you don't... sorry.
As for your memory... get it tested. Your first sentence of a comment was the way I remember it. That is why when I deleted it I said "Wish Granted". I get what you meant but I told you the parameters of what the discussion would be. You chose to violate those parameters and I deleted your comment. Really pretty simple again.
Oh and LOL that you don't call me a Republican. Why would you? My tactics emulate them? Not quite, I don't lie and make shit up when I respond. Do I respond aggressively - yes, but I don't have to misrepresent myself or my comments, unlike you. But calling me a Republican would be idiotic since I am an unabashed supporter of the Democratic Party and President Obama. Further, I constantly rag on the Republicans so if I were a Republican I would be a pretty shitty one. But for the record I am not. I plan to vote and support Democrats in both action and word.
Your last paragraph is a gem. It is a complete illustration of why the rest of your post is bullshit. First of all, I don't think I am a "great Democrat" and I never have said that. I vote my conscience, now that generally coincides with the Democrats. I am not a "great Democrat" I am a "Democrat" that's all. But nice try.
As for you being an "establishment Democrat" - yeah right and I am the Princess of Upper Tazmania (I am not btw). Futher, I could give a shit about your opinion about what kind of Democrat you think I am. You are nothing but a shill for the Republicans in 2012 and that's all you are. Own it. Have fun with it. But in the end - it is what you are.
Fine, call me a liar. I am heartbroken. Once again, this shows just what a waste it is to even try to engage with an ignorant soul like you that accuses others based on speculation colored by prejudice.
DeleteFor the record, you are 100% wrong. However, it is particularly obvious that you could care about things that do not meet your views. Open-mindedness is not your forte, but abusing others seems to be.
Carry on.
Whew, HuffPoMonitor has the video, so I got to watch it. Despite the fact that Finklestein is one of the most turgidly boring hackademics of all time, it was worth the time and effort. My observations...
ReplyDeleteFirst, it isn't just about BDS. When Finklestein talks about "the solidarity movement" or "solidarity," he's not usually referring to BDS. He's referring to palestinian solidarity -- the movement of keyboard activists and such to throw on their checked keffiyehs and proclaim their solidarity with the noble palestinian savages. So his indictment of "the solidarity movement" goes beyond just BDS -- he's slamming pro-palestinian activists as a whole.
Second, one of the true joys of this week was watching the face of that useless interviewer prick, as he got his ass handed to him time and again by someone he probably thought of as his hero -- "the Jew who hates Israel!" Dude looked like he had a mouthful of turd and was trying desperately not to swallow. Well, Finklestein astutely pointed out that yes, he did have a mouthful of turd.
Third, I think the real money moment came with about three minutes left, when Finklestein explodes about how he's 58 years old, he's been doing this for 30 years, and he's tired of the dishonesty and bullshit. But here's the kicker -- he's not tired of Israeli dishonesty or bullshit. He's tired of the pro-palestinian dishonesty and bullshit. That's the beautiful part of it all, that and the expression on turd-swallower's face.
Someone needs to download this video and make it part of our permanent collection!
Agree with this comment completely, especially the third point.
DeleteI just watched the video... very interesting. I can't say that I agree with Finkelstein in many of his points but I do agree 1000% with his insistence on honesty in political movements. I have long argued this on DKos - "Just be honest". I am arguing it here with the ODS'ers - "just be honest".
ReplyDeleteI still don't like or support Dr. Finkelstein but I have to say that in this one case - I think he makes sense.
"[Finkelstein] participated in the Iranian regime's Holocaust denial conference"
ReplyDelete...er no he didn't
Anon is right. Apparently he did not appear at the conference. It seems he was invited and turned down the invitation stating that he thought it was "not a scholarly conference but akin to a meeting of the 'Flat Earth Society'.
Deleteok fixed. Thank you.
Delete