Wednesday, June 12, 2013

Israel and Buridans Ass



Israel and Buridan’s Ass

With Deputy Defense Minister Danny Danon’s recent pronouncement regarding the issue that this Israeli government would never accept a Two State Settlement, an old paradox comes to mind regarding a Paradox of choices 

Buridan's ass is an illustration of a paradox in philosophy in the conception of free will.

It refers to a hypothetical situation wherein an ass that is equally hungry and thirsty is placed precisely midway between a stack of hay and a pail of water. Since the paradox assumes the ass will always go to whichever is closer, it will die of both hunger and thirst since it cannot make any rational decision to choose one over the other.[1] The paradox is named after the 14th century French philosopher Jean Buridan, whose philosophy of moral determinism it satirizes. A common variant of the paradox substitutes two identical piles of hay for the hay and water; the ass, unable to choose between the two, dies of hunger.”

Wherein Israeli Democracy finds itself in the position of the Ass…

Now before we start, lest anyone scream and shout about this in some way denigrates Israel or supports the dissolution of Israel, it does neither. Rather, it is a reflection of a concern that I have regarding the future of Israel.

Because of The Occupation of the West Bank, Israel faces some existential questions regarding its character as a State. With Danon’s pronouncement, the nation needs to decide what path it wants to go down. Is Danon right, despite protests from upper echelon Likud / Betainu ministers and officials, that there is a large enough group of MK’s that would block any agreement for a Two State Solution and at the very least will maintain the “status quo” indefinitely? OR Will Israelis reject the One State Solution or continuation of the status quo and force new elections in the face of some very serious existential questions?

One of these questions regards the nature of Israel’s democracy. Here I would pose three points of view regarding that. Now remember, according to Israel’s Declaration of Establishment

THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations….


WE APPEAL - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.

The very call for “Jewish Democracy”.

The above paragraphs from the Declaration of Establishment lay out some of the founding democratic principles of the founding of the State of Israel. The Declaration promises equal rights, full and equal citizenship to all Israelis, be they Arab or Jew. It doesn’t talk about second class citizens, and it doesn’t support disenfranchisement. So given that – here are the concerns to Democracy.

If Israel actually does formally reject the Two State Solution what are its options as a Democracy. Well, one route being discussed is that should Israel annex the West Bank, the Arab population living in the West Bank would have every civil right that Jewish citizens of Israel would have but that they would NOT have the right to vote in National elections. In other words, approx 2.7 million Palestinians (other reliable estimates put the numbers at 2.6 million) would be disenfranchised and have no vote for the leaders of their nation.

Just this would mean that Israel as a nation would be turning away from both its Declaration of Establishment AND it’s commitment to Democratic processes. One source of pride for Israel is that it can rightfully point out that it is a Liberal Democracy in a sea of Autocratic and Theocratic regimes that have no interest in human rights and/or democratic processes. Sure Egypt just voted, but, then their government put forth changes in political process which would hamstring those same democratic processes. Yes Lebanon has some form of strange Democracy but honestly, only as much as Hizbollah and their Iranian allies allow.
So, with the absorption of 2.7 Million Palestinians the demographic representation of Israel would change from 75.4% Jewish (6.042 million Jews to 1.658 million Palestinians out of 8.018 million people) to having a population of 10,618,000 and the demographic split would be approx. 57% - 43%.

OF that 43% of the population, more than half of that figure would have no voice in the election of their nation’s leaders.

This brings us to the second part of the equation, with Birthrates, Aliyah (and Yeridah) the Jewish population of Israel is growing at approximately 1.8% per year as compared to the Arab population with was growing at 2.4%, this would eventually create a Jewish MINORITY in Israel (which would not bode well for long term stability as minority states don’t tend to last for that long in today’s world), most likely within three decades.

In either case, whether or not the Arab population of Israel is allowed to vote, with the full annexation of The Occupied Territories, Israel as a democratic nation as envisioned by it’s founders would cease to exist either in the near term or thirty years from now.

For some, the nature of Israel as a democracy is simply not that important. It is obvious through their advocacy and policies that they don’t see the Israel in those terms and that the existence of Israel first and foremost as a Jewish State trumps anything else. For them, this is the reality of the Occupation and re-settlement of “Eretz Yisrael”.

One should then ask - What part of Israeli society do they represent? Well if one uses the election as a guide – the advocates of One State (or at least advocates of a de facto One State better known as the Status Quo) hold 43 seats in the current government out of 120 total seats. According to a recent Panels poll they would hold 42 seats if elections were held today (and the neo-Kahanist Otzma L’Israel would cross the electoral threshold and gain three seats).

For a bit of perspective, the advocates of Two States (in some form IF you count Yesh Atid – who seem to endorse the idea if not completely willingly), now hold 42 seats but would hold 54 seats in a new election. I don’t count the Arab parties here because none of them nor Hadash (A mixed Arab and Jewish party) advocates for anything but a Palestinian One State Solution.

Then of course, it is important to think of the ramification of this. IF Israel, decides to annex and allow full democracy (something I think they should do IF they decide to annex – because I am strong believer in “be careful what you wish for”, AND I am a huge fan of democracy as a system of government), then Israel would cease to be the National Homeland and State of the Jewish people. It would be a democracy and who knows how that would end (Personally, I believe that it would be full of strife and eventually force a Two State solution).

OR if Israel maintains the Status Quo or annexes (per Danon and the Right) then Israel would in effect cease to be a democracy, and would face the incredible problems that ruling over a sizable minority, a minority that doesn’t have full civil rights, presents. Not too mention that in this case annexation goes against the very foundation of democratic government of the State.

So, how does Israel solve this problem – how does it (as Buridan’s ass in the paradox) choose a path out of this? Well, in one respect it could drop all pretense of being a democracy, declare an end to democratic processes except for some individuals and watch what happens. Maybe nothing happens and no one cares, but I would assess that this is irresponsible thinking at best, more likely purely delusional. The problem of course with this is that at least half of their populace (and polity) fully disagrees with this, thus setting off their own issues. Also, is it realistic to think that there would not be repercussions from Israel’s trading partners and main ally, The United States? I think the obvious answer is no. There will be repercussions and harsh ones at that.

This would be the same for the solution that the Hard Right advocates which is to, expel the Arab population. Now, how would that go over with Israel’s own population, the rest of the world, and with their key ally the United States? Somehow, I don’t think that would float well. The idea of wholesale ethnic cleansing would not sit well with most Israelis, and for sure would bring on international isolation on the order of North Korea not to mention immediate war with its neighbors and with no ally to back it. Further, that would be a “step too far” for even the moderate Right (if that term makes sense). Even they wouldn’t support that.

At the same time, Israel is faced with the very real issue that the other side (the Palestinians) don’t seem to be able to step back from their maximalist demands. While advocates for the Palestinians cite a 55% acceptance of a Two State Solution amongst the Palestinian Polity and general support for the Arab League revised offer, no one mentions the issue of “Right of Return”, which would create an Arab Majority in Israel (and thus end Israel as the National Homeland and State of the Jewish People) should Israel even accept that agreement.

Polls of the Palestinian Polity show no willingness to compromise on their claimed “Right of Return” to Israel proper. A clear 70% of Palestinian respondents polled put “Right of Return” to Pre-1967 Israel as either the first or second priority for a new Palestinian State. So while, there is “acceptance” of a Two State Solution amongst the Arab populace, it is two states of Palestine and Israel run by Palestinians. Given that, why would Israel accede to any demands that the Palestinians make?

Where can Israel go at this point? Danon brought the issue public, but he represents a sizable minority of the Israeli populace. IF Israel takes the path laid out by Danon (either annex or maintain the status quo, Israeli democracy dies. Even if Israel takes Naftali Bennett’s path (as laid out in HaBayit HaYehudi’s platform), they kill their democracy because in the end ruling over Autonomous land areas really is not the same thing as those people in the Autonomous area’s creating their own nation.

At the same time, capitulation to Arab demands would not bring peace either. It might work with some of the nations that are already in a treaty with Israel, and perhaps some of the Gulf States might be more willing to deal, but the hardliners in Lebanon, and Syria (no matter who wins the Civil War there) would never go for it and really neither would the Palestinians. SO the nation faces existential questions in this regard as well.

Still, inactivity only would result in further problems. The American Government is offering their full backing to at least getting the Peace Process going again. It is my belief, that the current Israeli administration should completely reject Danon’s statements and work with Secretary Kerry and the Obama Administration to get discussions moving if for nothing else than both sides to lay out clear and final goals in an international setting.
In my mind, Israel should offer the Olmert map of 2007-08, a map that would guarantee Israeli security as well as would maintain the neighborhoods and areas built up in the post 1967 period and at the same time allowing the Palestinian polity a better chance at full representation for themselves. Also, I think that Israel should at least discuss at least Autonomous Palestinian control over neighborhoods and Muslim sites in Jerusalem. In return, Israel should settle for nothing less than complete Palestinian renunciation of their “Right of Return” to any parts of Israel and that there needs to be a full peace treaty with full economic and societal relations between the two nations.

Of course the question is, is this realistic in today’s climate of mutual mistrust and (judging by some of the comments posted in discussion forums) hate? I don’t know. It has not been really tried. Olmert never presented his final map to Palestinian President Abbas. A “final take it or leave it” discussion dealing with tricky issues like Jerusalem and Palestinian “Right of Return” has never been had in an international forum. But those are the two thorniest issues and the two issues that need to be settled for there to be long lasting peace.

Should the Palestinians reject this, then I believe it is incumbent upon the Israelis to simply create borders that would guarantee Israeli security and at the same time would allow the Palestinians to create their own separate and distinct state from Israel thus removing any demographic issues and threats to Israeli Democracy and too the nations founding principles.
I believe this is the only way that Israel can maintain it’s democracy without having to compromise itself in an unhealthy manner. In the end, this is up to the Israelis. Are they willing to make the hard choices that nations face? The one thing is that they simply can’t be like Buridan’s ass and simply do nothing until the situation becomes far more dire.

26 comments:

  1. Let's accept that, realistically, in the near term, the Palestinian Authority and other Arabs will not agree to any final settlement of the conflict. And even in some fantasy where they would, the agreement would not end the conflict with Hamas and therefore would not really be final.

    Given that, what can happen in the time being? There are basically only two options. One is unilaterally declaring a border and withdrawing from the WB. The other is continuing the status quo.

    The case against the unilateral border / withdrawal is what happened when they tried that with Gaza. One can reasonably assume that in that case the West Bank will soon be governed by an entity even more hostile than the PA, and the rockets will fly.

    So my reluctant conclusion is that in a sea of bad options, the least bad is simply continuing the status quo. Of course the more settlements there are deep into the WB, the harder it makes an eventual partition, so I think it has to be the status quo with no additional deep settlements. But "settlements" in areas close to the green line should proceed apace.

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    1. Two things then... and I am going to argue with you here - Respectfully but I am going to argue...

      The Status Quo as it is, is undemocratic. It simply is. Because whether or not the Palestinians agree to Peace, Israel continues to make political decisions for the Palestinians without allowing them to make their own decisions . Now, one may deny that all they like, but even with Tax revenues - those run through Israel first and then are returned to the Palestinian Authority. Continuing the Status Quo until the day after the world ends (because the Palestinians are never going to accept terms) is de facto annexation. If it is not, tell me how it is not.

      No one, from the E.U. to the U.S. (unless the Republican mainstream wins the next election and then we are in a "world of shit" here at home) is going to continue to accept this situation for more than a few years and have even said so.

      Not too mention that at some point the status quo will snap. Everyone, except the Israeli right realizes this. But you want to see how bad it is getting... Here is Netanyahu in Poland furiously turning away from Danon. http://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-in-poland-calls-for-peace-talks-without-delay/ (not mention DM Ya'alon's denunciation of his Deputy). I mean, read the dailies, the Israeli government is scrambling now that Danon revealed that there is absolutely no intention to enact a Two State Solution.

      Now you are right regarding Unilateralism, but as you know I advocate a full out effort in the direction of Peace talks (including freezes in the settlement process). BUT if those fall apart Israel has no choice but to take unilateral action.

      Will the Rockets fly - absolutely they will. But terror will start up again the longer the Status Quo is maintained. The difference of course is that NOW Israel can take action against those rockets as a State Actor and that makes a big difference.

      One other thing fiz... If you think my solution is unrealistic, yours is as well. Why? Because no one is stopping the creation of "deep settlements". Danon and the Right in Likud (along with Bayit Yehudi, and YB factions) are firmly against stopping even that. The government's record in stopping them is spotty at best. It may bave stopped them a couple of times but it sure as hell has let most things go....

      So... in the end (and Danon forced this) it is a choice between Democracy and Eretz Yisrael, not too mention facing our own political ideals and the founding ideals of Israel.

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  2. Volleyboy,

    Why do you hold to a definition of democracy that is synonymous with multiculturalism? Is democracy where the vote is restricted to members of the nation (in any state—say, like if only Thais had political rights in Thailand) any less of a democracy?

    I'm for democracy, Orthodox Jewish believer though I am; but I'm also a nationalist, and I think it's the nation-state's role to protect and secure its resident nation through various privileges (and I believe every real nation has that right, so it's not special pleading for the Jewish state only). And note, I'm not touching the issue of the post-1967 territories here; this question concerns Israel even in its pre-1967 borders. I just want to know why a state has to embrace multiculturalism if it is to be called a democracy.

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    1. I don't think it is a question of "multiculturalism". That is a dishonest way to frame it, IMO. If masses people are permanently governed by the rules of a country and citizens or permanent residents of it but not allowed to vote, that is simply not democracy, regardless of the cultures involved. That is, in fact, taxation without representation, and all kinds of other bad stuff.

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    2. Zion... I totally agree with fizziks. Multiculturalism is simply not the way I frame it. I am a true believer in the concept of Democracy or Representative Democracy. The way fizziks describes this is 100% accurate. You can't have democracy when masses of people simply are NOT represented.

      Now Zion, as I stated - you may or may not believe in Democracy, and you may or may not support Democratic principles and that is fine as long as you simply admit it (and I use the word "you" in an Imperial sense not in a personal one I guess I could say "one" - but I think you get what I mean).

      As for this:

      I just want to know why a state has to embrace multiculturalism if it is to be called a democracy.

      It doesn't have to. I never stated that it does. A state has to allow it's citizens (and people that live under its rules on a permanent basis) to be fully and justly represented to be called a democracy and the will of those citizens determine the course of that nation. That is democracy in my mind.

      I am not sure where you get a statement that a Nation must embrace "multiculturalism" to have that. A nation can and should create it's own national identity and that should be what rules the day, UNTIL, it's citizens vote to change that identity.

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    3. fizziks,

      "That is a dishonest way to frame it, IMO."

      No dishonesty meant, I only used the customary term now employed to mean having multiple nations in a single state. It's an euphemism, sure, but I'm not the one who coined it.

      "If masses people are permanently governed by the rules of a country and citizens or permanent residents of it but not allowed to vote, that is simply not democracy, regardless of the cultures involved."

      I see your point, but I still don't think I'd have a right to complain of second-class status if I were a resident of a hypothetical Thailand as in my first comment. The Thais would be justified in telling me that all I had to do was move to my nation-state, where I would have first-class rights. It would be a problem only if my nation had no state of its own.

      Volleyboy,

      "A state has to allow it's citizens (and people that live under its rules on a permanent basis) to be fully and justly represented to be called a democracy and the will of those citizens determine the course of that nation. That is democracy in my mind."

      Alright, so what do you think of a two-state solution where a population exchange is part of the agreement? Suppose there's an "Israel" in the pre-1967 borders and all the Jews of Judea and Samaria move to it, and there's a "Palestine" in the post-1967 borders and all the Arabs in pre-1967 Israel move to it, thus creating an "Israel" that is 100% Jewish and a "Palestine" that is 100% Arab. With such a solution, Israel's democracy would be fully preserved.

      "A nation can and should create it's own national identity and that should be what rules the day, UNTIL, it's citizens vote to change that identity."

      That's exactly the problem. You rightly say annexing the post-1967 territories would change Israel's character unless it were to give up on democracy, yet your observations also apply within the pre-1967 Israel alone. That's why I said this issue goes beyond the question of the Jewish population centers in the post-1967 territories.

      The majority of Israeli Jews, me included, want Israel to be both Jewish (nationally speaking, not in the religious sense) and democratic. If the two parameters are not to clash with each other—with the inevitable consequence that most in my country would choose the former—the only possible way with a chance of keeping with international law would be the two-state solution with population exchange I envisioned above. It's worked for Greece and Turkey since 1923—true, they don't like each other, but at least civil strife and the demise of democracy have been prevented by that. (Turkey's present crisis is an internal affair, nothing to do with this discussion.)

      Thanks for your patient responses, both of you.

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    4. Hi Zio,

      To take your Thailand example, there are indeed minority ethnicities within Thailand. They are called "hill tribes". And it would be a real problem if they did not get the vote. Thailand is their home, even though they are not Thai, and they are subject to its laws and taxes.

      Democracy and Multiculturalism are two different concepts. Democracy means that everyone gets the vote and there are freedoms such as assembly, religion, the press, trials, and so on. Multiculturalism means things such as multiple official languages, parallel court systems for different religions, different schools, etc. And in fact at the present moment Israel probably has too much multiculturalism, not just for Arabs but also for Haredim.

      As for a population transfer, in the context of a two state solution I think it is reasonable to explore the idea of land swaps, for areas such as the Umm el Fahm triangle, which would result in some of the current Arab population of Israel falling under the jurisdiction of the Arab state. However forcing people to move - uprooting a family from Nazarath or Haifa and sending them to another state seems just as wrong as uprooting a Jewish family from Hebron. It probably shouldn't be done. That said, history is ripe with examples where it has been done (Greece-Turkey, Czech-Germany, Hungary-Slovakia, etc) and it wasn't the end of the world.

      One last thought: even in the most extreme nationalistic scenario, one would not want Israel to be 100% Jewish. The Druze and Circassian communities have been loyal citizens from the start. Plus there are some Christian Arabs and Bedouin trackers who have family histories of IDF service.

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    5. Zion... I have to agree almost completely with fizziks, almost. I know you will not like to "hear" this, but I believe there will have to be a choice for some of the Israeli Jews living in some settlements as to which nation they want to live in. I think Hebron for instance should be part of the new Palestinian nations. Now if the Jewish settlers that live there want to stay - Kol Ha'kvod but if they do.. they are on their own.

      Same btw, for some of the Palestinians, who should be given the choice (as Livni did in 2007-08, and they chose to remain Israeli).

      What do I think of a Two State solution with Population Transfer? As I said above - I don't generally support it unless that population transfer involves land swaps and no one is being tossed out of their homes. How do I square that with the settlers and my thoughts on that? Israelis voluntarily moved into the West Bank before its status was settled, so I think in doing that they had to understand that there would be a chance that they would need to move. The Arabs who live in villages in Israel proper did not do that. They have lived there for a much longer time.

      Remember, I support the Olmert Plan, so I do think there are some settlements that simply need to stay. Heck, I lived in one of those areas - Ramat Eshkol.

      With regards to population.. I strongly believe that were Israel to follow the guidelines of Olmert's plan, demographics would never become an issue.

      Oh and I agree with you in terms of wanting to be democratic and nationally Jewish. I want that for Israel as well. Hence my feelings and support for Two States.

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    6. fizziks,

      "To take your Thailand example,..."

      I chose Thailand as the hypothetical example because its history doesn't complicate things by bringing factors such as Western colonialism. I actually think India or Greece would be more similar to Israel.

      "They are called 'hill tribes'. And it would be a real problem if they did not get the vote. Thailand is their home, even though they are not Thai, and they are subject to its laws and taxes."

      Agreed. On the other hand, I also believe those hill tribes don't want the whole Thai state changed to accommodate them, let alone eliminated, am I correct? That's a difference that makes things a whole new ball game.

      "However forcing people to move - uprooting a family from Nazarath or Haifa and sending them to another state seems just as wrong as uprooting a Jewish family from Hebron. It probably shouldn't be done."

      A big problem, because setting the borders according to the demographic facts would make both states non-contiguous.

      "...one would not want Israel to be 100% Jewish. The Druze and Circassian communities have been loyal citizens from the start."

      Quite right, I forgot about them. How ironic, considering I recently wrote about the Druzes' similarity to the Jews as regards loyalty to the host state.

      Volleyboy,

      "I know you will not like to 'hear' this,..."

      It's not like that, it's more of a request for reciprocity. To state that the new Arab state would not be viable with its Jewish population is still within the bounds of realpolitik, but to reject the same reasoning regarding the Jewish state and its Arab population bespeaks an ideological bias against the Jewish state.

      "The Arabs who live in villages in Israel proper did not do that. They have lived there for a much longer time."

      I don't think the argument of "They were here first, they were here longer" is a good basis for a non-ideological stance. The ideological arguments I make are a reaction to the portrayal of Jews as interlopers on this land, but if I believed in the near-future achievability of a negotiated solution I wouldn't be making them.

      The problem is as I just wrote in the response to Fizziks: non-contiguity. For so much as Israel is depicted in the media as a vast, sprawling empire, in reality it is very small. Although the Jews were not hard to please after 2000 of statelessness, the British Peale and Woodhead proposals for a Jewish state the size of 4000 and 1275 km² respectively (c. 1550 and 495 square miles) were rejected even by the most compromise-ready Zionist representatives on grounds of being absurdly small for the resettling the entire Jewish nation. The same point of view means making fewer territorial or demographic demands of the Jewish state than the new Arab state would not be perceived as reality-based; it would be transparently biased.

      And remember, all of this is theoretical until the RoR is given up.

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    7. Added to clarify:

      My point in bringing up the issue of Israel's size is that the pre-1967, internationally recognized borders are the smallest Israel could acceptably get in the eyes of non-right-wing Israeli Jews. That means further cut-downs like incorporating the Umm el Fahm triangle within the new Arab state would be rejected, not only by the Israeli Right but the Left as well, much as the Peale and Woodhead proposals were rejected by Ben Gurion's and Jabotinsky's factions alike.

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    8. Ok a few things on this:

      To state that the new Arab state would not be viable with its Jewish population is still within the bounds of realpolitik, but to reject the same reasoning regarding the Jewish state and its Arab population bespeaks an ideological bias against the Jewish state.

      But this is NOT my argument. I never said that the new Arab State would not be viable with a Jewish Population in it. In fact, I said the exact opposite:

      I think Hebron for instance should be part of the new Palestinian nations. Now if the Jewish settlers that live there want to stay - Kol Ha'kvod but if they do.. they are on their own.

      The "realpolitik" part of this is that, what Jewish Prime Minister really wants to be responsible for letting the settlers stay and face what they would face at the hands of the Palestinian government?

      Essentially you changed my premise. There is no ideological bias against the Jewish State here. Which leads to the next point...

      I don't think the argument of "They were here first, they were here longer" is a good basis for a non-ideological stance.

      I disagree with you here. There is a big difference in the Arabs living in Arab villages in Israel or the West Bank AND Israeli settlers living in the West Bank. Those Arab villagers (or City Dwellers) were in Israel / The West Bank with full authority to be there from the people that had official recognition. They had lived on that land for generations upon generations. Their living in that area was sanctioned by those that officially ruled the area.

      On the other hand, Israel has never designated an official or legal status for the West Bank other than calling it "Occupied / Disputed Territory". They have in effect settled territory that they have never officially claimed or had that claim recognized. People moving into that territory, know this ahead of time.

      NOW, if Israel IS making an official claim to the land, fine they should do that, or should have done that. But they haven't. Why is that? I think we both know the answer to that question.

      I understand why you make the arguments you make in other places and why you feel the need to make them. I can understand your frustration with what you see happening. I get that. I sometimes even agree with them.. for instance I agree that the problem doesn't date to 1948 but to 1882. I think that is a very well made point.

      That said, I have also come to the conclusion that I don't give a crap what the other side says or does to a degree. I know what I have to do to be able "to sleep at night". I feel that if I don't do what I think is right, then I am doing the wrong thing. IF I try to do what is right and the other side rejects that, I still don't compromise my principles (democracy or acting like the Arab Nations) but I take into account what I need to do to survive and thrive. SO... I can fully support the actions of 1948 (with the exception of say something like Deir Yassin) or the ideas behind Cast Lead, because I know that everything was done in self-defense and that people did not go out of their way to harm others on a mass scale. It was nothing like the elder Assad's treatment of Homs for instance.

      One other note - Zion... You need to know that I lived in Israel for a year and I am very familiar with the actual geography of the place.

      One thing about RoR is that whether it is given up or not, it is simply never going to happen. Period. You know this, I know this. IF the Palestinians decide that this is more important than having their own state... So be it. Tough shit on them. I don't see how that stops Israel from creating a secure Two State Solution.

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    9. On your "cut downs"... remember that is not just giving up land - it is swapping, size for size.

      Here is Olmerts Map - An Israeli proposed map btw. http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/haaretz-exclusive-olmert-s-plan-for-peace-with-the-palestinians-1.1970

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    10. "...what Jewish Prime Minister really wants to be responsible for letting the settlers stay and face what they would face at the hands of the Palestinian government?"

      I fully agree. I have to note, though, the disparity of expectations from the two sides: It is understood that Jews can't live in the new Arab state because they'd be massacred, while Arabs can happily live in the Jewish state because they'd be perfectly safe.

      It's to Israel's credit, but I can't help noticing how—in this case as in so many—Israel's humanitarian record is ripe for being pitted against Israel. This is little different from hiding weapons in a children's playground in the knowledge that Israel would leave them untouched rather than risk hurting children.

      I know where you're coming from in your stance that Israel must never stoop to their level, but I fear there's a certain point at which that becomes suicidal. Being too fearful of becoming a monster when fighting monsters might lead to giving the monsters the upper hand to remake the world in their monstrous image.

      "Those Arab villagers (or City Dwellers) ... had lived on that land for generations upon generations."

      This is far too adjacent to the view that the hiatus of Jewish physical presence in Palestine means they have lost all rights to the land. Now, I'm not saying that's what you think, by any means; but that is one of the main underpinnings of anti-Zionism. To bring the duration of physical presence must necessarily run into that problem. In a nutshell, that's why I prefer to base the case for Zionism on the Jews' unbroken cultural connection to the land.

      "Those Arab villagers (or City Dwellers) were in Israel / The West Bank with full authority to be there from the people that had official recognition. ... Their living in that area was sanctioned by those that officially ruled the area."

      If, as I take it, you base Israel's right to exist upon international law, what do you do when an anti-Zionist brings up the U.N. Generally Assembly call to implement the RoR?

      "SO... I can fully support the actions of 1948 ... or the ideas behind Cast Lead, because I know that everything was done in self-defense and that people did not go out of their way to harm others on a mass scale. It was nothing like the elder Assad's treatment of Homs for instance."

      We are in agreement, but the picture painted by the worldwide media is something else. Cast Lead was supposed to be totally accepted in world opinion (self-defense, as you said), but was received by a torrent of condemnation as if we had done what the elder Assad did. This is no small matter, because the policymakers' decisions follow the media perception.

      "You need to know that I lived in Israel for a year and I am very familiar with the actual geography of the place."

      Alright, though I'm still sensitive to the ease, the comfort at which people (all people, from all the world) tell Israel to reduce itself. This demand by countries several times Israel's size strikes many Israeli Jews as unfair (to put it mildly).

      "One thing about RoR is that whether it is given up or not, it is simply never going to happen. Period. You know this, I know this."

      Ah, but do the Arabs know it? When Israel tells them the RoR is never going to happen, will they not launch another intifada? And when Israel tries to quell this intifada, will the world not condemn Israel in the strongest terms, and will the BDSers not ramp up their comparisons to Sharpeville and Soweto? I have no reason to believe other than that we would be back to square one with this.

      Thanks, I just downloaded the map.

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    11. (PART 1)

      OK..

      First of all I have to say Zion.. this is the discussion I like to have - on topic and relevant with responses to each point. Rather than simply repeating failed memes or not reading each others points and simply doing a Sarah Palin debate fail "You may want to debate this but this is not what I want to talk about" (she did this during her debate with Joe Biden in response to the Moderators debate question), you have faithfully engaged. I appreciate that.

      So in the spirit intended....

      I know where you're coming from in your stance that Israel must never stoop to their level, but I fear there's a certain point at which that becomes suicidal. Being too fearful of becoming a monster when fighting monsters might lead to giving the monsters the upper hand to remake the world in their monstrous image.

      Rather than call it fear of becoming a "monster", I would call it having the strength to maintain ones principles and knowing how to work with those principles to get the job done. I think Ben-Gurion and the early Haganah / Palmach did this while the Irgun failed.

      I am not saying not to take aggressive action regarding threats but I am saying not to degrade ourselves while taking aggressive action. It can be done and I think Israel's founders showed us the way as to how to do just that.

      Now as for my views on the land... .

      I believe firmly that there is a huge Jewish cultural connection to the land and had not the Romans carried out a mass ethnic cleansing or had Mohammed's army never invaded, no doubt we would have been looking a long time Jewish majority in what was termed "Lower Syria" or the "Palestine District". I think there is no doubt as to the Jewish connection to the land.

      MORESO.... When the first Halutzim arrived in Israel (I refer to it as that), they did through with land deeds and through purchase of the land. They established themselves within the framework of the ruling parties (Be they Turk or British). As for the land taken in the War for Independence - hey that was a war that the Jews never asked for and the Arabs forced on us. We won, they lost... Now, for families forced out by the Haganah - I am all for reparations (NOT RETURN), but most people either were forced out by the Arab Armies or left on their own. The Israelis told them to stay, but they refused. That was their deal, not ours.

      So in reality that is a lot different from what the anti-Zionists say because as you rightly pointed out at another blog, their fight is with the original purchase NOT with what happened in 1948. Their getting their asses kicked in 1948 is just an excuse.
      My argument cuts down their argument because it rests in the legal purchase or grant of land.

      cont....

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    12. Part II

      Alright, though I'm still sensitive to the ease, the comfort at which people (all people, from all the world) tell Israel to reduce itself. This demand by countries several times Israel's size strikes many Israeli Jews as unfair (to put it mildly).

      I get this. I really do. My Israeli friends and I discuss this at times. It is not "comfortable" for me to suggest any of that and I get the physical reality of this situation. At the same time, I really think that in the end - the attempts at Peace or at least one more attempt is better in the long run than simple geography which given weapons ranges will become less and less important.

      Finally, Do the Arabs know about RoR... Of course they do. No Arab expects that Israel would willingly give them RoR. They have known it forever. Israel has stated that RoR would not happen.

      I think the bottom line really is that I don't give a rat's ass about what the BDS'ers think regarding Israel's security. They can go pound sand, because for them, until Israel doesn't exist they won't be happy.

      But nu... let them talk. We counter with our own arguments, but we make arguments based on being right, not arguments or extreme positions to counter their own. I am not interested in becoming them... They can say Israel is like South Africa all they want (and they already do) but Israel is nothing like South Africa and our job is simply and effectively show that. We don't need to denigrate them - just look at the argument with General Choomin. He couldn't directly answer a single question that was put to him with a real definitive answer. Why? Because even he knew his answers would "damn" his argument. Eventually, he went away... and if he is dumb enough to come back then he will have to face the same kind of questions and we will see the same thing again.

      Remember, you fight fire with water Zion...

      Politically, I get that we are different. I believe you stated somewhere that you wanted to vote for Otzma but voted for Bayit Yehudi because you didn't think Otzma would pass the threshold (which they didn't). SO.. you understand... I am on the other side of the spectrum from you.

      I used to support Meretz but since then I have moved a bit rightward as I think they are a bit naive about Arab overall political objectives (not much). Had I been an Israeli voter - I would have voted for either Livni (most likely) or Shelly. NOW, if new elections were held I would firmly be with Avodah.

      SO now you should understand where I am coming from in my philosophy.

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    13. "I am not saying not to take aggressive action regarding threats but I am saying not to degrade ourselves while taking aggressive action."

      Oh, that's nothing new—Jewish Law on warfare goes the middle road between pacifism (Gandhi) and wanton cruelty (Genghis Khan). Cruelty for the sake of cruelty, like targeting women and children, is forbidden. But if the enemy makes cruelty necessary, Jewish Law gives the go-ahead, like when combatants and weaponry are mixed with the women and children. The blame then lies with those who put them in harm's way instead of carrying them off to shelter.

      I've never advocated wanton destruction or tit-for-tat strikes; the goal is to make the attacks on Israel stop by making it clear the price would be too high. As for land concessions, I think they're the wrong way to go about this because they send the message that terrorism pays.

      As for your views on the land, those are exactly the ones I was raised on. What has prompted me to develop my views on the land is seeing how those first views are no longer sufficient to a world that increasingly denies all our claims, construing Zionism to have been immoral since 1882. So, to what you say:

      "We counter with our own arguments, but we make arguments based on being right, not arguments or extreme positions to counter their own."

      The arguments I make are, in my opinion, both based on being right and counters to the anti-Zionists' ones. The fact is there's a lot of arguments for the rightness of Zionism. One could argue the Jews have the right to the land because they made it bloom after centuries of near-desolation, or that we have the right because the Arabs benefited from it, or because of the San Remo Convention... that's just a partial list. If I'm biased toward one particular argument, it's because I think it's the strongest one, the best answer to those of the anti-Zionists.

      Responding to the anti-Zionists may not be the most important factor, but I believe it's still important.

      "It is not 'comfortable' for me to suggest any of that and I get the physical reality of this situation."

      Put it this way, it's a bitter pill anyway you slice it, but the really big trouble for the last decade or so has been that there's nothing to sweeten that pill. As long as Israeli Jews believe that abandoning the post-1967 territories would only bring terrorism (rockets especially) closer to more parts of pre-1967 Israel, they won't see land concessions as anything but loss, with no gain whatsoever.

      (contd.)

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    14. (contd.)

      "Do the Arabs know about RoR... Of course they do. No Arab expects that Israel would willingly give them RoR. ... They [the BDSers] can go pound sand, because for them, until Israel doesn't exist they won't be happy."

      It's easy to say all that, but in effect this means Israel should brace for endless war on both physical and media battlefronts. In which case: Back to square one again no matter how much land Israel gives up.

      "They can say Israel is like South Africa all they want (and they already do) but Israel is nothing like South Africa and our job is simply and effectively show that."

      In order to show that, we need to air it in the mainstream media, where I believe people with anti-Zionist leanings are over-represented. There's a media blockade we'll have to break through if the truth is not to be confined to the Internet.

      "We don't need to denigrate them - just look at the argument with General Choomin. He couldn't directly answer a single question that was put to him with a real definitive answer. ... Eventually, he went away"

      But he didn't change his mind, and worse, he continues to spew elsewhere. And I'm not talking about Choomin himself, but the loads of people you can win the argument with but that changes nothing. Like I said, that's not the problem; the problem is who's in control of the megaphone.

      "Remember, you fight fire with water Zion..."

      Unless it's a fire caused by an electric shortcut, in which case you must fight fire with sand to prevent the risk of electrocution. Not sure how that immediately carries to reality, but my point is a change of strategy is needed if the traditional ways don't work.

      "Politically, I get that we are different."

      Actually I'm different from a lot of Israeli Jews in that I'm a fiscal conservative, while most of my fellow countrymen are for socialism. (Israeli politics: The possibility of being right-wing on some issues and left-wing on others at the same time.) My stance of geopolitics, on the other hand, is considered acceptable even though it's not the majority opinion. Arab intransigence has made it so.

      The latest Israeli elections had big turnout but not much fervor. People decided to vote the parties that reflected the issues that concerned them most (hence, by Lapid's ascent, it is evident that the economy was the main concern), but with no great hopes that things would radically change. You sound a lot more enthusiastic about Israeli politics than the average Israeli—we here have become so jaded about our politicians.

      As well, because the majority of Israelis hold the peace process to be locked in stalemate for the foreseeable future, the past few elections have seen an increase in voting on socio-economics. (Again, this explains Yesh Atid's jump.)

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    15. Ok.. so we agree on some stuff here...

      Jewish Law gives the go-ahead, like when combatants and weaponry are mixed with the women and children. The blame then lies with those who put them in harm's way instead of carrying them off to shelter.

      Right... Hamas is guilty of war crimes when it or P.I.J. or other militant groups fires from the middle of civilian areas and the Israelis retaliate to the firing zone. They are using civilians as cover for their operations. I think we agree that the IDF was not wrong to strike for the Rocket squads in Gaza.

      As for your views... Cool, I don't agree with much of what you write in other places on this, but, as I have said before I appreciate your honesty in approach. It means there can be dialog even if in the end we can't agree on a course of action.

      My argument for the "Rightness of Zionism" is simple. It is right because it is the legitimate movement for self determination for the Jewish People in their ancestral homeland. I can support that. The Jewish people come from the area that is now Israel and the West Bank (I will not use the constructs of Judea and Samaria as I was there in Israel, when those terms were revived and I know for a fact they were revived to differently frame the conflict). Establishing a homeland on part of that territory IS our right. Thus Zionism, is right.

      As for the rest of the "changing minds" argument... Nothing I say would change Choomin's mind. He is a standard, garden variety anti-Semite playing Leftist. BUT, he has been exposed as a fraud (as if anyone didn't know that already). People do look at this blog. Seeing the beating he took - they know to question their own advocacy. It might not change anything but it might lead them to ask questions. A little bit at a time. It's how we change the world.

      And yes, I am a bit "enthusiastic" about Israeli politics. I find them both fascinating and important. But you should know that I am also an American Political junkie. I studied Poli Sci. in college and for a bit in grad school. In the end, I care much more about American politics than I do about Israeli politics because after all.. I am an American and I did not make Aliyah when I had the chance (but that is a story for another time - in short, I didn't make Aliyah because if I did I wanted to go into a combat unit in Tzahal and I found out my vision would not let do that, I was 19 and I was not that bright at the time).

      I don't know what you have been told about me from other parties but I think you would find the reality a bit different. Let's just say that.

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    16. "My argument for the 'Rightness of Zionism' is simple. It is right because it is the legitimate movement for self determination for the Jewish People in their ancestral homeland."

      It's the same argument I make all the time: That the Jews are indigenous to Palestine. What I add over this is the recognition of, and therefore the reaction to, the fact that this very claim—of the Jews being indigenous to Palestine—is the one being denied by construing the local Arabs as if they were the one and only indigenous Palestinian nation from time immemorial, and by dint of logic, the Jews as settler-colonist invaders, European or otherwise.

      Perhaps the great difference in our thinking is that you hold that the two narratives can coexist, as if this conflict were about equal claimants like the Hutus and the Tutsis, while I think the narratives clash, and also that they clash by design (framing the local Arabs as "The Palestinians" as a malicious act of Zionism denial). As I've said numerous times on the various forums I frequent, I'd be willing to settle for a "Hutus vs. Tutsis" view of this conflict, but there's no way I'm going to respect a narrative that I believe denies Jewish national rights.

      "People do look at this blog. Seeing the beating he took - they know to question their own advocacy. It might not change anything but it might lead them to ask questions. A little bit at a time. It's how we change the world."

      I know what you mean, but I've long considered such persuasion to be too slow to achieve a critical mass. If only we dastardly Zionists had control of the worldwide media like the Jew-haters say we do (natch), we could reach out and change people's minds a lot faster, and in far greater numbers.

      "But you should know that I am also an American Political junkie."

      I too take interest in American politics. I was born in Israel, but about three decades ago I lived in America for a few years, then came back. I was engrossed following the 2012 elections, but now that that's over I'm a lot less interested.

      "I don't know what you have been told about me from other parties but I think you would find the reality a bit different."

      Ah, but I have a surprise for you: My involvement with the Internet exchanges on Zionism doesn't start with my writing on Mike Lumish's blog, not by a long shot. It goes all the way back to July 2006, when, in the thick of the Second Lebanon War, I got wind of Daily Kos and started reading its Israel-related threads. I remember quite a few of these, and others that I don't remember are archived in local storage. You give me an old name, such as Carl Nyberg, Edtastic, Keith Moon, Drgrishka etc., and I can instantly tell you what he/she was and which side they were on.

      So, I don't need to have heard of you from anybody else—I've read your comments for nearly seven years. Relative to that, writing on Karmafish's blog is something quite recent.

      All in all a good discussion. Apart from one exception, of your differentiation between the status of the Arabs in pre-1967 Israel vs. the Jews in the post-1967 territories, I've found no radical disagreement between us—the way I see it, most of the things we disagree on are the details, the methods as to how to solve or at least alleviate this conflict. We have common ground to base our disagreements on, which is something I can't say about other websites that label themselves "Progressive," because they approach the conflict from the a priori standpoint that Israel is mired in "Original Sin" and must pay through the nose as "atonement." I can have no dialog with those who view the very creation of the Jewish state as wrong.

      I'm shutting down the 'puter for Shabbat soon, so if you reply it'll take a while before I read it.

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    17. Shabbat Shalom Zion...

      Interesting discussion.

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  3. (livosh1)
    Good diary on a very sad state of affairs, volley. One additional point on "maintaining the status quo": The so-called "status quo" involves continued settlement expansion, which only makes a really bad situation even worse. So, those that defend the maintenance of the status quo as a neutral "do no harm" option are either being dishonest or are sticking their heads in the sand. The so-called status quo is a path towards destruction.

    And a word about Democracy: If Israel allows itself (through perpetuation of the so-called status quo) to destroy its democracy, Israel will stop being Israel. Admittedly, that may be o.k. with some Israelis, and some of its supporters, but over the next generation many Jews both in Israel and the diaspora will wash their hands of the matter. Volley, do you for a minute think that our kids' generation, and the generation after that, will continue our affection for Israel, and continue to view its existence as necessary for Jewish self-determination, if that very existence rests firmly on anti-democratic principles? No way. Not a chance.

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    1. Well livosh, I tend to sort of agree with you here, but one quibble. I think our children will still have affection for the nation of Israel even if they don't like what the government is doing. I have real issues with certain aspects of the current government, yet, I love the nation and the idea of Israel. I can't wait to go back and visit (and I practice my Hebrew every day).

      I find myself frustrated constantly at the anti-Democratic principles embraced by the right. But that said, how can I turn my back on this place I love. I don't fear what Secretary Kerry is trying to say and do, I get it - and I truly believe this administration is a real friend to the Israel, even if some people are too blind to see it.

      So in short - even if Israel temporarily embraces anti-Democratic principles, I don't see my affection for the nation falling off. I might really dislike the government, and I might not support it's actions, but when push comes to shove I think Israel IS necessary for Jewish self-determination, and IS an important place no matter what.

      I have faith in the Israeli people to ultimately "right the ship". I really do. You know I spend a fair amount of time with Israelis. They are brusque, rude and can be real assholes - but they are also genuine, caring and personally honest (except in business - like anyone else, my Israeli friends would laugh at me saying this and would say Betach)..

      For me, I separate out the nations actions from the idea of the nation. I believe things need to change to make things better. And I think they can and will, one way or another.

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    2. (livosh1)
      Volley, the "idea of Israel" that you refer to is not one that deliberately thumbs its nose at the principles set forth in the Declaration of Establishment, quoted above. While you and I will always have affection for that idea, at some point that idea could be overwhelmed by the consequences of continued perpetuation of the so-called status quo. And it will be a much more difficult -- if not impossible -- sell to the next generation (and the generation after that) than it was to ours.

      We aren't there yet (and I sure hope we don't get there), but at some point it will become practically impossible to separate the nation's actions from the idea of the nation (as you to refer to above). Don't take comfort in the fact that you can still do that today.

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  4. I was very disturbed to hear about this http://mg.co.za/article/2013-06-14-00-not-in-my-name-rages-sa-diplomat . A South African ambassador (actually, former ambassador to Israel, he retired) insulted the Jewish State by returning a certificate that said trees were planted in his honor! (imagine, the horror of trees). If you know the history of South Africa and Israel, and how Israel helped South Africa during its darkest days when it was most isolated, this is a real tragedy. (see for example http://www.jta.org/1976/06/03/archive/vorster-sees-israel-south-africa-cooperating-despite-differences and in reverse, South Africa was always there for Israel, Jan Smuts, a wonderful statesman and a proud supporter of zionism, was one of the first to recognize Israel)
    This is a real tragedy. who does he think he is???

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    1. ehh, it is ridiculous for the South African ambassador to object to a tree planting. I would also like to point out that he appears to be a Muslim, which, if you consider that Israel is ok with having a Muslim ambassador from a non-Muslim country, just speaks volumes to the tolerance and openness of Israel. Can you imagine what would happen if a Western country sent a Jewish ambassador to an Arab country?? I can, because it happened, and of course they outright refused his credentials (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace_Phillips_%28diplomat%29).

      So yeah, Israel is pretty awesome in that regard, and the Arab world is pretty shitty.

      As for the supposedly close relations between Israel and South Africa back in the day that you are trying to highlight, I can assure you that it was out of necessity and expedience, because of, oh I don't know, maybe the four genocidal wars launched against Israel by the Arab world while it was only 9 miles wide. On the other hand, the "Palestinian" Arabs have tried to make themselves a part of literally every totalitarian cause of the 20th century, starting with the Nazis, then the Soviets, and now Islamism. Bleh.

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