As a fan of Pink Floyd and of your music in general I have to tell you that I was severely disappointed in the letter you wrote to try to convince Alicia Keys NOT to perform in Israel. I would be very remiss if I did not tell you that your letter is full of contradictions and outright falsehoods.
You write:
“We are all part of the same old story, nothing has changed since the bad old days of apartheid South Africa and Segregated America. We must stand united with all our brothers and sisters against racism, colonialism, segregation and apartheid.Well, first of all Roger… things have changed, and in this case NOT for the better. You talk about standing with “brothers and sisters” against racism, and apartheid and you talk about “global civil society” that is standing for peace and justice for all humanity… Apparently though, you seem to forget the Jewish people when you talk about “all humanity”.
Please, Alicia, do not lend your name to give legitimacy to the Israeli government policies of illegal, apartheid, occupation of the homelands of the indigenous people of Palestine.
Others may try to persuade you that by playing in Israel you may magically effect some change; we know that this is not true, appeasement didn't work with South Africa and it has not worked in Israel. I know I tried it ten years ago, things have only got worse.
I appeal to you to join the rising tide of resistance. Join the many millions of us in global civil society who stand together on the side of justice and peace for all humanity. "We shall overcome one day."
For instance, you mention that Israelis are occupying the “homelands of the indigenous people of Palestine”, well are not the Jewish people indigenous to the area known as Palestine / Israel? And if so, why do you deny the Jewish people their legitimate rights to self-determination in their ancestral homeland? If you do deny that Jews are indigenous to the area known as the Palestine district, where do you think they originated?
But when you talk in support of the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions Movement (BDS) you should realize that this is a movement that denies the Jewish People their legitimate rights to self determination and instead favors only the rights of the Palestinian people.
You talk of peace and justice but understand that neither the Palestinian polity nor the Jewish polity, accepts what you propose. HOWEVER, Israel (the country you demonize in your letter) is on record offering peace agreements time and time again, only to be rebuffed by the Palestinians that you claim to represent. Did you know that the Palestinian Polity overwhelmingly REJECTS a One State Democratic Solution that guarantees equal rights to Jews? Yep… they do. Don’t take my word for it though – please look at the results of the PSR Poll 47 from the Palestinian Center for Survey and Research in Ramallah.
Look in section 5 regarding The Peace Process. Here are the findings on this:
Talk has recently increased about the inevitable failure of the two state solution and the need to demand the formulation of a solution based on the establishment of one state in all Palestinian areas and Israel, one in which Arabs and Jews enjoy equality. Do you support or oppose this view?And there we have it… 70% of the Palestinian Polity OPPOSES a state where Arabs and Jews enjoy equality. So do you support Democracy here, and if not, what kind of government do you support? Also, if not, how do you square that with your rhetoric?
Support: 29%
Oppose: 70%
(Note vote is not in original form due to formatting issues but the question is the exact wording - J.S.)
So really, wouldn’t you say that the program that you support and called for by Palestinian Civil Society one is the one that reflects colonialism and apartheid? I mean, you are telling us to support Palestinian political dreams. Well, here they are in a poll of Palestinians by Palestinians. So how do you square this with your talk about justice for humanity Mr. Waters?
Then you talk about Apartheid. Roger, do you know what Apartheid is? I get that it is the hip word to use when talking about Israel, but, really how accurate is that term? I mean you do know that South Africa was a country that was ruled by a minority government that practiced the most severe forms of segregation and oppression? In South Africa Whites were only 12% of the population, but in Israel, Jews are 73% of the population.
Further… Arabs are not precluded from being part of Israeli society, unlike in South Africa, Arabs can and do vote including having ministers in Government, justices on the Israeli Supreme Court and so forth. Do you know that Omar Barghouti, the head of the movement you support got his Masters at Tel-Aviv University? In South Africa Black and White Students were not allowed to mix.
The failed analogy goes on and on.
Finally Mr. Waters, do you really want to bring Alice Walker into this? I mean, I realize that Ms. Walker is a famous and well received author but did you know that Ms. Walker also supports the insane, and frankly racist writing of David Ickes? Again, don’t take my word for it. How about you read for yourself:
http://alicewalkersgarden.com/2013/02/human-race-get-off-your-knees-i-couldnt-have-put-it-better-myself/
Here is just a little slice of Ms. Walkers feelings:
It’s an amazing book, HUMAN RACE GET OFF YOUR KNEES, and reading it was the ultimate reading adventure. I felt it was the first time I was able to observe, and mostly imagine and comprehend, the root of the incredible evil that has engulfed our planet. A lot of it is how shall we say: shocking, beyond belief (but not really, if you don’t get too scared), stunning, profound. The deconstruction of language is breathtaking, the interrogation of symbols startling. Magical, in a way. I kept going: Oh, so that’s why…. You will too.
The Reptilian space beings whose hybrid (part human, part reptile) descendants make our lives hell in Paradise were blue eyed devils to Malcolm X, the devil himself to my Christian parents, who never talked about eye color, which I think was not only prudent but wise, although they seemed clear enough about his sex, and as demons in many other religions, including the non-religion, Buddhism, where the advice is often to invite them in until they go away. But maybe these were other kinds of demons. Not the ones controlling not just you, but everything.
Is this the company that you want to keep – people insisting that White’s and Jews are some alien hybrid Reptillian race bent on suppression of the planet?
Roger, I would suggest that before you send out requests like the one you did, you look at the hypocrisy contained in your letter. You claim to be for “human rights and justice for all humanity”. Aren’t we Jews human? OR maybe you subscribe to David Icke’s theories as well?
Please just look at the data for the side that you support. I am not sure how any of what you support measures up to your rhetoric and words to Ms. Keys.
Regards -
Roger Waters' involvement with BDS has saddened me for a long time. I am a Pink Floyd fan, and their albums have gotten me through some tough times in the past. Of course if you think about it, the genius of Pink Floyd mostly comes from Nick Mason and David Gilmour. Roger Waters' biggest contribution was The Wall, which is frankly inferior to Wish You Were Here and Dark Side.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I think it is a shame and stupid that society accords a lot of value to what any entertainers think about issues. I don't see why being a good entertainer, or even a good artist, makes someone wise when it comes to political or social matters. But it is what it is. I hope that Waters gets a clue and sees what the side he has chosen to align himself with actually believes.
Any way you slice it, my days of tripping balls while watching The Wall are probably over.
You don't like "The Wall".. Oh man, I am gonna have to re-think our friendship... Just kidding. Actually the best Floyd album in my mind is Animals, followed by Wish You Were Here and then The Wall... Ok enough on that...
ReplyDeleteI don't see anything wrong with valuing what entertainers have to say... Some of them are far better than "serious people" any day of the week. Take Jon Stewart. In general, I would trust him more about news then any of the pundits or talking heads on the news. Same with Maddow.
The thing with Waters is the crass hypocrisy of his language. It is just ridiculous.
Jon Steward and Rachel Maddow are primarily journalists, or at least journalistic entertainers. When I say that I don't think we should place exceptional value on what entertainers have to say about political or social issues, I'm talking about musicians, singers, jugglers, clowns, and so on.
DeleteSo when you talk about clowns... don't forget to include every single Republican Pundit.
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ReplyDeleteWell said, volley.
Waters is your typical leftie pseudo-intellectual. He wears leftie issues like fashion statements, so for him, hating Israel and loving the innocent palestinian bunnies is like throwing on a linen shirt from South America and wearing a pair of birkenstocks. Except he puts more thought into the shirt and the shoes than he does into the facts of his politics.
ReplyDeleteOnly one quibble Paul... rather than call him a "leftie pseudo intellectual", I would just call him a "pseudo intellectual" because that is a condition to both Righties and Lefties. But yeah, I know the type and they both merge (Righty nut job Libertarians and Lefty Goofball wanna be hippies) at Ron Paul / Lyndon LaRouche and their lunacy. Waters is just along that nut patch. He just obviously doesn't understand what consistency is.
DeleteThe case of Volleyboy1's important letter! AKA old bullshit on new paper.
ReplyDeleteROFLMAO... Choomin, you are a rock star, I know I can count on you for some nice "stalkerish" nonsense.
DeleteHow about you tell me where I am wrong? Just please explain to me where my criticism of Waters fails? Am I citing anything that is false? Please... explain to me where anything I said is untrue. Go on... I am waiting.
Do you support Waters, and his commentary? If you do then surely you must have a problem with the way the Palestinian Polity deals with issues. Or wait, is it ok that the Palestinian polity does not believe in equal rights for Jewish and Arab citizens by a very wide margin? Is it ok that a terrorist group like Palestinian Islamic Jihad enjoys a favorable rating of 56%? How about that over 40% of Palestinians support attacking Israeli civilians inside the Green Line (who knows what that % is in the Territories)?
How do those fit in with your ideals of "Multiculturalism" and anti-racism?
Oh and if they don't, then why aren't you simply agreeing with me?
"Palestinian" Arabs are not any browner than Israeli Jews. Are you colorblind?
DeleteNo he is just not that bright... I would love to see who here he is quoting above. Oh right, he is just pulling that one out of his ass (as usual). Notice.. he has absolutely nothing to answer these questions. He can't do it. Why, because that would expose him. He is just some bored either Neo-Nazi or Lyndon LaRouche/Ron Paul nutjob,
DeleteSo, Gen. Let's see... Let me repeat:
How about you tell me where I am wrong? Just please explain to me where my criticism of Waters fails? Am I citing anything that is false? Please... explain to me where anything I said is untrue. Go on... I am waiting.
Do you support Waters, and his commentary? If you do then surely you must have a problem with the way the Palestinian Polity deals with issues. Or wait, is it ok that the Palestinian polity does not believe in equal rights for Jewish and Arab citizens by a very wide margin? Is it ok that a terrorist group like Palestinian Islamic Jihad enjoys a favorable rating of 56%? How about that over 40% of Palestinians support attacking Israeli civilians inside the Green Line (who knows what that % is in the Territories)?
How do those fit in with your ideals of "Multiculturalism" and anti-racism?
Oh and if they don't, then why aren't you simply agreeing with me?
Let's try to stay on topic shall we? Now how about you start defending your position as someone who supports Humanism and Multiculturalism because from what I see here there is only one racist / bigot and that, my friend, is you.
Choomin... Those are not answers with one exception (the answer about Waters and then only sort of) - they are just statements attached to questions but the statements have nothing to do with the questions.
ReplyDeleteOn Waters, So you do or do not support Waters, realizing of course that what Waters is doing or saying are not completely true? You say you support YOUR CAUSES - well then what is your cause and is it consistent with what Waters supports. Of course one other thing Choomin... The question is NOT about your causes, the question is about supporting Roger Waters and his inconsistency.
Oh and NO, Israel is NOT an Apartheid nation. You should learn what Apartheid really was, not what you are trying to change it to mean.
Your second answer has absolutely NOTHING to do with the question. SO, perhaps I should ask it again since you obviously didn't understand the question.
If you do (support Waters criticisms under the guise of anti-racism and other issues) then surely you must have a problem with the way the Palestinian Polity deals with issues. Or wait, is it ok that the Palestinian polity does not believe in equal rights for Jewish and Arab citizens by a very wide margin?
This is not a hard one.
Next question and comment: The answer that was deleted (and not actually by me) was a silly rant that deserved to be deleted, where like this comment you merely screech "racist, racist, racist" over and over but don't actually show where anyone here is a racist or provide any rational proof. The only one spouting any racism here is you.
So let's stick to the topic shall we?
Are you saying that the it is the Israelis that are at fault for attacks against themselves? Is that what you really believe? Do you really think that killing civilians in terror attacks is justified? If you do, then just admit it. If you don't, then why are you trying to make excuses for it?
The last question I will simply repeat because you didn't answer it:
How do those fit in with your ideals of "Multiculturalism" and anti-racism?
OK.. now here:
The only reason I even came here was because I was bored out of my mind and wanted to have a place to actually and intelligently talk about the crisis in Syria.
This is a lie. First of all, you came here because for some G-d awful reason you feel a need to stalk me and scream racist at myself and others who post here. Second of all, I can only guess at what your real agenda may be. Either you are a garden variety White Supremacist that hates Jews OR you some LaRouchie/Paulbot simpleton. That is what I am down to guessing.
You want to talk about Syria? This isn't the article to do it. But here is one:http://www.progressivezionist.com/2013/04/normal-0-false-false-false.html - Read that and comment there. But stay on topic.
You want to have a real discussion? Be honest about where you are coming from and stop projecting your racism and bigotry on to others.
Oh yeah and pay attention to what people write. If you can't do that, then don't come here. Because honestly, how much fun is it to simply be laughed at and be called a troll over and over again. Right now, that is what you are... a simple garden variety troll who contributes absolutely nothing to any discussion that is happening.
So in other words you are too embarrassed to admit your bigotry.
ReplyDeleteGotcha.. Cool...
Oh yeah I read your "Syria" blog. really? Let me drop some info on you.
ReplyDeleteHezbollah has ordered all of Hamas out of Lebanon immediately. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4386246,00.html
Hamas leadership had relocated to Qatar in 2012 due to the civil war.
What Hezbolah recently found out was this http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Local-News/2013/May-31/218984-hezbollah-fighters-find-nusras-tactics-in-qusair-irritatingly-familiar.ashx#axzz2V5UqNV95 That the very tactics that they used in 2006 against Israel that they had developed where now being used against them.
Hamas had stabbed Hezbollah in the back. Since Hezbollah had shared those same tactics to Hamas to use as guerrilla and urban warfare against any sort of Israeli invasion. In return, Hamas revealed all of Hezbollah tactics to the terrorists. This has now led to 100s of deaths of Hezbollah fighters and thousands of the soft Syrian army.
Iran has also cut funding to Hamas due to this.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jun/2/iran-cuts-hamas-funding-backing-syrian-opposition/ Iran has also cut off military aid and training as well as most of Hamas governing budget which Iran gave 23 million a month.
This could open up new possibilities for new alliances as well as thaws in hostilities between old enemies. That is, if Israel or other more powerful nations don't escalate this into a bigger regional war.
The bad of the conflict spilling over is that Iraq has more then 1000 deaths due to sectarian killings just last month.
The good news that with the recent events even Israel could win out. In 2008 Syria and Israel where in peace talks with Turkey as mediator. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/24/syria.israelandthepalestinians
When Israel struck Gaza the talks where off. Now, with the situation changed, that might not be a problem. And with most of the nation in ruins, Israel could work out a way to give back the golan while maintaining water rights or give enough back for Syria to save face and end the BS (something livini acknowledge they might do in the palestinian papers) for a complete peace treaty. Or they could be the same old lukid dicks and blow it.
Now I know everyone says "assad? hes a bad guy!". Well, he's as bad as any other guy in that region but probably a little less so. His state is the last secular state in the region and the population don't totally hate him as seen as the majority of the country is sunni and the vast majority of the military is also sunni it would be easy to overthrow him. But that hasn't happened.
Hezbollah and Iran where also the first to throw in the towel in support of Assad. Now various militias are also going in to fight the other various opposition militias being supplied by Iran/GCC respectively. Assad still won't go down because his biggest allies are Russia and China.
Russia already has terrorists problems and they don't want battle hardened militants coming back and started trouble in their underbelly.
The second is China. They will support Assad. They made those intentions clear when they stood with Russia to veto those anti-assad bills. China values stability and the oil that the stability in the middle east affords. If Russia falters then China will take an active roll imo.
Who do I want to win? Even though Assad is a torturing dictator, he and the groups fighting the terorists aren't using child soldiers. Most important, imo, is that neither he nor the groups fighting under him never crashed two planes into the wtc while the terrorist opposition are on the same page and are even considered to be a part of al-queda.
I have said my ideas on Syria. I wished to get input on them from others while not being heckled but looked at critically based on facts and logic.
You're blog post about this topic just seemed like, sorry to say, stuff the MSM vomits up from the state department word for word. It also seems like something you are choosing to undercover even if it is a huge event.
I ACTUALLy had to cut more info cuz of your word limit. You see I actually wanted to discuss syria. But whatever. Part 3 of my post.
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FYI I tried to look for other opinions elsewhere. I never checked dailykos since it turned into a cult of personality for Obama. You where basically on the bottom of my list. I actually checked redstate.com before I checked this site but didn't have one single article about these events.
Anyways I'm not stalking you. If posting on your open forum is stalking you then everyone is a stalker. You, on the other hand, well every other post is how much you hate the troubador.
You accuse me of being a troll and that's fine. I used facts to back up my assertions on you and fizziks. You just use ad-homilies to discredit what I say.
You see I actually did want to write about a major topic or read about it in a critical fashion. Too bad for me. I am gone from here. You can be as two faced liar racist as much as you want to be now vollybody1. I won't be here to call you out on it.
You are the biggest liar ever. Karmafish and his fascist pals have more respect for other people then you since at least they don't lie about what they are about. You lie pretending you are all for progressive and leftists causes but inside of you is nothing more then hate and contempt for others. That's the one thing the bigots and racists over there had that the bigots and racists like you and your friends don't. They have the decency to say to your face what they think unlike you who uses alan dershowitz methods to smear and lie ALL THE TIME.
goodbye for good.
goodbye for good
DeleteYou promise?
You know Choomin - your little write up on Syria was actually interesting. Too bad you had to ruin it with the rest of your nonsense and attacks.
Oh Well...
If you think Lumish and I are the same - you have to be stone high... But anyway, whatever you think man... Good deal.
Learn to control yourself sometime Choomin and you might actually have something worthwhile to yap about. But right now, your bullshit far outweighs whatever else you might have
Oh yeah and for the future... Just FYI... It's ad hominems... NOT ad homilies. Just helpin' you out here bro.
Sorry, it just doesn't add up. He supposedly thinks we're horrible racisteses, yet he came here seeking intelligent analysis of the situation in Syria? I think he came here to stalk, as always.
DeleteOf course it doesn't fiz... Here's why:
Delete1. He said he came to talk about Syria, but all he did was call us racists and haters. He didn't come in with any kind of discussion on Syria and he didn't comment on the Syria diary. Then when cornered by showing that he is raving bigot and has two different standards (Israel/Jews and Palestinians) THEN, he tried to switch the subject. But he never answered what his agenda was and he never acknowledged that he thought double standards were ok.
2. Look at all his answers - they don't directly address any of the questions, why? because he knows he was caught being a hypocrite and an anti-Semite. Now, I don't know why he won't just proudly admit his bigotry - if he hates Jews so much he should be proud of the fact. BUT... he doesn't want to do that. Sad.
3. I think it's pretty obvious (as you say) he merely came to stalk.. Look at his comment about my article on Syria. It has really no MSM talking points as he accuses me of, and then look at his sources... Washington Times??? Holy shit, why not use The National Enquirer, they might be a better source.
Bur again, watch him dance around ignoring how the PA and Hamas continually violate Human Rights, and that these are the two most popular groups in the Palestinian Polity. I have yet to see him explain that the fact that the Palestinians, by a huge majority (30% to 70%) favor a One State solution where Arabs and Jews are UNEQUAL.
But hey I guess it's ok if you are a Palestinian. I mean, from reading his non-answers, I guess to the General here racism and bigotry are fine as long as it is directed against Jews.
Maybe Roger Waters and Alice Walker just don't like Judiasm and this is their way of expressing it. By hating Israel. Public expressions of anti-semitism are considered unacceptable in today's world (unless by radical islamists) so it gets expressed by being anti-Israel.
ReplyDeletesandbox
That is likely true in the case of Alice Walker - she's clearly just a mentally unbalanced nutcase. Roger Waters strikes me as more of the useful idiot type, driven by a huge ego.
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