Kobayashi Maru - A no-win situation or scenario, in which every action is effectively countered by a force either seen or unseenThe Kobayashi Maru was a fictional test in the Star Trek series of a "no-win" situation. The test was to assess a cadet's fitness to deal with an impossible situation.
It seems that Israeli Prime Minister faces his own Kobayashi Maru - better known as his version of "The Two State Solution". What makes this Netanyahu's version of a "no-win" situation? Due to the fact that his proposals are an unacceptable alternative to almost EVERYONE, Israeli, Palestinian or member of the World Community.
The Prime Minister has NOT laid out an official plan but given all of his statements on the subject one can speculate what his map might look like. It seems that Netanyahu is proposing something akin to a combination of the Olmert Plan (see map here) AND the Allon Plan with a few changes and additions two of which are that Jerusalem remain undivided under Israeli Control and as Israel's International Capitol and that the Palestinians recognize Israel as the National Homeland and State of the Jewish People.
So what makes this a Kobayashi Maru Test? Why is it a "no-win" situation for the PM?
Well first off (and let's get the most obvious issue or "objection") - In any negotiation there needs to be an agreement from both sides on a final plan. To get that agreement from the Palestinians, they would have to voluntarily give up on any part of East Jerusalem, including Islam's third holiest shrine the Dome of the Rock and Al-Aqsa Mosque. NOW... one can make the case that for the most part that under Israeli Rule worshipers have been free to exercise their religious freedom while the same cannot be said when other religions had ruled over Jewish Holy Sites. Still, no Arab leader could voluntarily give up Jerusalem and expect to live until the end of the day.
President Abbas, actually agreed to split E. Jerusalem (as indicated in the Palestine Papers), however, as he never took this back to the Palestinian people and walked away from negotiations one will never know if this would have been accepted by the general populace.
Second, The Palestinians would also have to renounce their perceived "Right of Return" as laid out in U.N. Res. 194. NOW, according to the Palestine Paper by accepting Israel as the National Homeland and State of the Jewish people. This is a flash point in negotiations and it is something that is of vital importance to both sides. For the Israelis to allow "Palestinian Right of Return" would mean the end of their State as a "Jewish State", and for the Palestinians to give this up would mean "giving up" on the refugee population and banishing them to the tender mercies of their Arab brethren in the surrounding nations.
Again, President Abbas indicated (according to the Palestine Papers) that he would indeed compromise here - HOWEVER like with Jerusalem he was hesitant to take it back to his populace knowing full well that this would never be acceptable to a vast majority.
This is not to mention that the presumed Netanyahu border outline leaves the Palestine State with few resources including most importantly water, no control over their borders and a demilitarized state. As previously stated, this would be a very "hard sell" for Abbas and the Palestinian leadership and quite possibly one that they could not agree too even if they wanted.
Now, the PM and the Israeli negotiating team my feel that they have the Palestinians "Over a Barrel", and to degree they do, of course the Palestinians also feel they have the Israelis "Over a Barrel". How so? Well, if the Palestinians don't negotiate, they can't have a State. Something that they want and in my opinion quite badly need. At the same time if they don't have a State, they force Israel into a situation where the Israelis bleed manpower and treasure to maintain an unpopular Occupation. They force Israel into the position of becoming a permanent Occupying power, a position that would eventually in turn severely strain support for Israel with even it's strongest allies in the U.S. and Europe.
This position of becoming a permanent Occupying power would then force Israel into a demographic nightmare given birthrates of Jews relative to Palestinians. It would not be long until Jews were a minority in the area that they ruled over. THUS, this would destroy Israel's democracy and force an almost permanent civil war on the nation.
Of course the Israelis could then forcibly remove the entire Palestinian population of the West Bank, but, for some odd reason, I think that level of ethnic cleansing would bring on the next Arab Israeli War, and most likely Israel would not have the backing of the it's principle allies.
BUT ok.... let's say the "Age of Miracles" returns AND the Palestinians agree to the Prime Ministers plan. What then? Well the PM's own party turned hard right in the last election lifting noted Right Wing politicians Gideon Saar, and Danny Danon to more powerful positions while relative moderates like Dan Meriador were purged. These hard rightists have said in no uncertain terms that they would not accept anything less than Israeli control over the entire West Bank (Judea and Samaria as they call it).
Would the Rightists give up on the Occupation of Hebron? As one Rightist blogger likes to put it, would the YESHA give up on telling Jews that they have the right to live in what they consider Jewish land in Judea and Samaria? Giving up the settlements in Gaza was traumatic enough (remember Gush Katif?) one can imagine that officially giving up sovereignty over the Territories would lead to a government split at the best and (more likely) Civil War at worst.
Now it is again the both sides in a Catch-22. The Palestinians get what they want (sort of) but who is to guarantee that radical factions like Hamas don't get control of the Palestinian polity, and start a conflict (like Cast Lead). After all it is in the Hamas Charter that they must kill all the Jews and destroy Israel. Then, like in Gaza Israel would be facing an enemy shelling Jerusalem and Tel Aviv from even closer range. What Israeli Prime Minister could agree to something like that and keep his job much less his life (witness Yitzhak Rabin)?
Basically, there's no good way through this without a miracle or more properly the backing of a Super Power to make a deal happen. For the Israelis to make this deal happen they need to have the assurances and the actual back-up of a major military power to assure their security. Something along the lines of a mutual defense pact with a nation like the U.S. and economic security arrangements with both of it's major economic partners,. the U.S. and the Europeans.
For the Palestinians they need to make sure that people will be there to help them build their economy and a stable political system that would not be subject to the authoritarian impulses of the their present leadership. They would need to strike a deal around the Harm al Sharif and Al-Aqsa where they do not relinquish control of their Holy Sites AND they would have to find an alternative solution to the Refugee's.
It's like doing a coin flip with the devil where he smiles and says: "Heads I win, Tails you lose", and you know it's true. Are there ways out. Possibly.... Is it likely now. Not. At. All.
(livosh1)
ReplyDeleteThe sad thing is . . . there truly is common ground to be had. We all know what the basic parameters and elements of a two state resolution look like, there's little mystery there. And we all know what elements will never . . . ever . . . be part of such a resolution. A reasonable resolution to the conflict is out there for the taking, but it will never happen as long as the reasonable moderates on each side focus on finding common ground with their own extremist elements rather than on taking steps to reach out to the other side. Solidarity forever . . . with extremist elements . . . doesn't cut it it.
Indeed livosh there IS common ground to be had.
DeleteA reasonable resolution to the conflict is out there for the taking, but it will never happen as long as the reasonable moderates on each side focus on finding common ground with their own extremist elements rather than on taking steps to reach out to the other side.
I agree with this, yet it is also true that "reasonable elements" are often shouted down by the extremists who continue to try to set "framing and agenda". AND in the case of both Israelis and Palestinians actually have been successful (though I will say far more so in the case of the Palestinians than Israelis - but the Israeli right IS making up ground fast).
The atmosphere at this point is so poisoned by hyperbolic rhetoric and false accusations that it is hard to see a way out... YET for all their lies (and we know them to be lies on BOTH sides there still are fundamental truths out there.
Wouldn't it be wonderful to see a focused discussion w/out hyperbole, based solely on the facts at hand where the extremes actually listen to what is being said. Where they actually pay attention to the arguments that people make rather than simply ignore them?
THAT is going to be the only thing that solves this.
This is a fair and nuanced analysis, volleyboy. Including this as a stumbling block, on equal ground with all other issues, however, is a glaring logical flaw, imo -
ReplyDelete"Second, The Palestinians would also have to renounce their perceived "Right of Return" as laid out in U.N. Res. 194. NOW, according to the Palestine Paper by accepting Israel as the National Homeland and State of the Jewish people. This is a flash point in negotiations and it is something that is of vital importance to both sides. For the Israelis to allow "Palestinian Right of Return" would mean the end of their State as a "Jewish State", and for the Palestinians to give this up would mean "giving up" on the refugee population and banishing them to the tender mercies of their Arab brethren in the surrounding nations."
Considering that what is under discussion is the creation of a Palestinian state (which I support the creation of), what 'right of return' would they reasonably be expected to be granted into a state (Israel) which is not their own? Palestinian refugees, however they are defined, can return to Palestine.
Taking a step back and considering this from as neutral a position as I can possibly assume, I really truly do not understand how there can be more than one reasonable 'side' to this specific issue?
"Again, President Abbas indicated (according to the Palestine Papers) that he would indeed compromise here - HOWEVER like with Jerusalem he was hesitant to take it back to his populace knowing full well that this would never be acceptable to a vast majority."
As far as I can tell, there is absolutely a clear right and absolutely a clear wrong here on this one particular issue.
Would you agree on that, at least, for starters?
"Due to the fact that [Netanyahu's] proposals are an unacceptable alternative to almost EVERYONE, Israeli, Palestinian or member of the World Community.
By apparently granting all 'unacceptability' equal consideration, aren't we perhaps ignoring the fact that some stumbling blocks, such as they are, are much less... justified (is that the right word?)... than others, is I suppose what I mean to ask here?
Fair questions Jay... fair questions.
DeleteActually when it comes to Palestinian "Right of Return", I agree with your opinion and I see things pretty much the same way on personal basis.
But, the fact of the matter is that the Palestinians don't see it the way you or I see this. In reality, many of them simply don't accept Israel's right to exist as it was created. SO when we talk in terms of "absolute right and wrong" - sure for us, your suggestion is absolutely correct. BUT, I know Palestinians that would disagree with you (and do with me) regarding this.
So I would agree that for you, and for me, and for what I would hope are neutral observers, that yes there is a right and wrong and that the most right opinion would be that Law of Return (Hoq ha'Shvut) holds for Jews in Israel and that Palestinian "Right of Return" holds for Palestinians in the presumed state of Palestine.
The only stumbling block is that Palestinians don't necessarily see things the way we do, and consider Israel's creation to be wrong in the first place. And that is where we run into trouble. It is something unfortunately that has be discussed and has been discussed by the Palestinian and Israeli negotiating teams.
I guess what I am saying is that due to the importance that the Palestinians place on this, it is a major issue - even if... you and I see it differently.
BTW, when the Olmert Government discussed this, I believe the discussion was around allowing 50 - 60,000 "refugees" back and finding compensation for the rest.
As for this:
By apparently granting all 'unacceptability' equal consideration, aren't we perhaps ignoring the fact that some stumbling blocks, such as they are, are much less... justified (is that the right word?)
I think the short answer for this is "yes".
I am thinking that both sides can actually ask this question and from their various perspectives "yes" is the answer.
NOW, if you are asking what my personal opinion is... I support the Olmert plan and the only refugees personally that I think should be let back in are those that were actually forced to leave but not their descendents. I do think Israel should chip in for compensation but I also think the Arab nations should pay their share for first of all rejecting the creation of the Palestinian State and then for treating the Palestinians as political footballs.
Good comment Jay.
Thanks.
DeleteThat all sounds about right to me, and I'm glad I don't have to be the one to discuss these issues. And of course, you and I aren't the ones who'll be discussing and settling this, so I guess it's good to at least know we agree on this.
Again, I realize personal opinion matters not at all (as I am, of course, not an Israeli), and all I can do is support Israel and hope they do right by them. I'm of the opinion (which said opinion is worth exactly what it cost me to type this comment on a blog) that there is no more use in negotiating, basically for reasons like this (I don't feel the Palestinians should have a veto on the process considering their leadership's own history of rejecting statehood and instead launching multiple war(s), conventional and otherwise, on Israel) and that a unilateral declaration of final borders by Israel, with withdrawal into same along with the proviso that any attacks from the territories will be met just as any other country would deal with attacks upon itself from a hostile neighbor, is probably the best course to end this situation once and for all.
Admittedly a crappy situation, but what else can realistically be done anytime soon? If negotiations work, fantastic! I hope I'm wrong on that. But unfortunately, I do not think that I am.
To each their own, of course. Thank you for the reply, volley.
Amen to this
DeleteI'm glad I don't have to be the one to discuss these issues.
That would be a tough job.
Though I can see where you are coming from wrt negotiations, I am not sure that I agree. I think they at least need to happen. Sometimes when you get people face to face in a room things happen. I think it is worth a try one last time. I mean, the results will probably be the same but, I think with the right guarantees from various military and economic powers PLUS the timing this might be it.
I really believe that the only way there will ever be lasting peace is if both sides have a say in it.
But believe me, there are some days when the lure of unilateralism does make itself very tempting.
One thing,,,, and we have to look at the Israelis on this. Check this out...
Outside of the Prime Minister, there are very few IF any in Likud that actually will accept a Two State Solution. Saar, Danon and Feiglin are all in for annexing the Territories. SO while you or I may think that is reasonable there aren't many in the current coalition that would agree.
NOW Yesh Atid gives a new coalition a shot at having a real Two State voice, as do Kadima and HaTanuah. But the big stumbling block there is Bennett and HaBayit HaYehudi. They have no plans whatsoever to allow any coalition they are in to accept the Two State solution. Check out their platform and Bennett's public statements. ALSO, the conservative wing of LIkud won't go along with plans from Lapid, Livni, and Mofaz - SO... there is that fight as well...
As for your post, I don't think you are wrong - but I do hope (as you do) that you are.
So far - Good discussion Jay.
Yet what strikes me on this...
Delete"Outside of the Prime Minister, there are very few IF any in Likud that actually will accept a Two State Solution. Saar, Danon and Feiglin are all in for annexing the Territories. SO while you or I may think that is reasonable there aren't many in the current coalition that would agree. "
...is that we're talking about a few (admittedly key, but still) Israelis, versus essentially all of the Palestinian leadership.
Correct me if I'm wrong?
You surely do know more of the personalities and politics involved here than I do, as my own focus is and always has been on antisemitism and its enablers on the internet. I like to learn where I can, though, especially on Israeli politics, so if there's something I'm missing please inform me on that.
I also see what you mean regarding a truly lasting peace only resulting from a bilateral agreement. Which is why I said I hope I'm wrong in the first place! ;)
I do hope my cynicism is misplaced, and I can appreciate "one last try." After all, as I always say, I have my own opinions but in the end I'll ultimately support whatever Israel feels is in its own best interest. For instance, I oppose dividing Jerusalem, but if an Israeli negotiating team agrees to it who am I to take issue with that, if it brings lasting peace?
Well Jay, I do hope that your cynicism is misplaced but I fear it is not. It's not about being right or wrong... it is more of what it is. In the end, it's up to both the Israelis and the Palestinians and those of us on the sidelines... well that is just who we are. The ramifications of all of their actions will I be their own relative responsibilities.
DeleteI appreciate your asking questions regarding the Israeli political side of the equation.
Gideon Saar, Danny Danon, and Moshe Feiglin represent a growing and significant minority within Likud. In the last party primary, they gained ascendency while the moderates lost their positions. So while they are NOT the entire leadership they do wield a great deal of power.
You know, Jay.... I posted a diary here a few days back titled "Where do you fit in with the Israeli Electorate". I put some links in there to a test of the Israeli political compass. I would suggest two things. First take the test, and then look at how your answers compare to the rest of the politics. It will explain the main players and what their policies are. ALSO the test is part of the Israel Democracy Institute. They have all kinds of helpful insights there. I would be curious to see where you end up.
I took it, and landed exactly on top of Am Shalem. 'American Me' would assume I'd vote Labor, however if I were an Israeli I would likely prioritize security over economic issues (especially in a country like Israel where I believe the playing field is somewhat fairer than it is here in the US) and probably would have voted Yesh Atid this year. Though of course, there are also numerous other issues which would come into consideration of which 'American Me' is currently unaware, so it's hard to say for sure.
DeleteThanks for the background, volley. I'm not too familiar with Sa'ar, though I am familiar with Danon and Feiglin.
Sorry, don't mean to butt in, but you mention how the rightists are taking more hold. Perhaps because people understand the dynamics on the ground with regard to the threats.
DeleteI have the sense that if the Arabs made some gestures that people could believe, the popularity of the men you mentioned would decrease, and that the society in general supports finding a fair peace, but is hardened because there is no genuine common ground.
Plus, it gives the Palestinian leaders something to think about, that they are creating a less cooperative adversary, though they probably could care.
If these men are troublesome, then why not offer more support for Netanyahu, who is not so extreme? People love to compare him to the worst tyrants, sometimes even progressive Jews, without thinking so much of the alternatives.
Gideon Sa'ar is (was) the Education Minister. He is now #3 (behind Lieberman) on the Likud-Betainu List.
DeleteInteresting on the placement. I can see that.
No oldschool, that is a fair comment. I may disagree with some of it (to a degree) but it is on topic.
DeleteI do agree with this with one minor quibble:
I have the sense that if the Arabs made some gestures that people could believe, the popularity of the men you mentioned would decrease, and that the society in general supports finding a fair peace, but is hardened because there is no genuine common ground.
I think the society supports finding a peace, not necessarily fair but peace nonetheless. I do agree that if the Arabs/Palestinians just uttered the phrase, we recognize Israel as the National Homeland and State of the Jewish people... we would be much further along.
That said, I think (and livosh alludes to this below), there are those in the Israeli polity that don't care about a Two State Solution and don't want to see it happen. The entire HaBayit HaYehudi Party stands completely against Two States as does the YESHA wing of Likud. For them, and they do wield considerable power (particularly the YESHA - because the PM has enabled them), no matter what the Palestinians did or said... it would not be enough for them to give up the West Bank.
As for offering support to PM Netanyahu... No. I agree with Opposition (maybe) Leader Yachimovich. The PM is bringing regressive economic policies to Israel, he is steering a rudderless ship wrt foreign policy with no clear goals whatsoever.
I agree with you that the man is no Tyrant. In my opinion he is more like a hapless Republican here.
As for this:
People love to compare him to the worst tyrants, sometimes even progressive Jews, without thinking so much of the alternatives.
Yeah, and those people are not particularly that bright. And yes... some factions within Liberal/Progressive Jews do say that thought they are far to the fringe. I have not seen that here.
You need to look closer then because he has been unduly disparaged here, such as by the very person you mentioned, who regularly engages in labeling.
DeleteDomestic policies are not on topic in a foreign policy discussion.
Not that I agree with the characterization, but perhaps the "rudderless ship" is because there is so much uncertainty overall in the region.
The prospects of a less cooperative Israel should push the Palestinians toward the table, if they were reasonable, which they seem not.
As for a peace vs. a fair peace, it remains an unknown, though I suspect the Israeli people, at this point in time, increasingly will demand the latter.
In addition to the issue of return, not a right under international law, there are too many other obstacles, and not because of Netanyahu. There is nothing he can do that will satisfy the Palestinians, whoever actually speaks for them, short of capitulation. The US and others should push to redefine what constitutes a refugee in this case. That is a good move for all refugees.
ReplyDeleteWhere is the common ground? Saying this does not make one an enemy of common ground, either, but a realist that takes what people say at their word.
In my view, Israel should stand firm while the Palestinians get their act together. As indicated, the Palestinian people are still being fed deception and hate by their leaders, where any public accommodation to normalize with Israel can endanger one's person. Seems to me that there is a consensus in Israel to do exactly that, while staying at the ready to make peace if there is a willing partner.
The Palestinians killed Oslo, not the Israelis, and showed that agreements are worthless without good faith.
In the end, Israel may just have to declare borders. It will not ethnically cleanse anyone, and to suggest so is reckless. Indeed, there are many Palestinians that would rather live in freedom as Israelis than as Palestinians, which is telling as to how they are treated, even with the problems that are a by-product of the larger conflict.
Perhaps to give the Palestinians their state would cause the Europeans and other Palestinian benefactors to stop paying disproportionate heed to their plight above all others and start to address situations in the world that deserve more attention, where far more people are affected and suffer.
Interesting and I can see your P.O.V. here.
DeleteQuibble with this paragraph:
In the end, Israel may just have to declare borders. It will not ethnically cleanse anyone, and to suggest so is reckless. Indeed, there are many Palestinians that would rather live in freedom as Israelis than as Palestinians, which is telling as to how they are treated, even with the problems that are a by-product of the larger conflict.
Maybe... but why do think Israel would not ethnically cleanse anyone? Serious question here. First, though let me explain why I ask it. Right now the only one's on the Right that talking about a Two State Solution are PM Netanyahu (and possibly Avigdor Lieberman). The Betainu part of Likud is weakened. In their primaries Likud moved much harder to the Right and cast out moderates like Meridor and Begin. Gideon Saar is the new # 2 and Danny Danon is # 6 on their list. They are in favor of annexation of the Territories. How will they deal with partners like Livni (who wants but won't get the FM post) and Lapid, who wants talks with the Palestinians now? So let's say the government then pivots to Bennett and Jewish Home. Their goal is simple for now... Annex Area C and keep Area's A&B as autonomous areas connected by new high speed roads (of course they have no way to pay for this but why let details get in the way).
Now then you would have Israel "declaring borders" as the Med. to the Jordan. What to do with the Palestinians? That causes a major demographic shift that would threaten the Jewish majority. You (not you personally but the royal "you") can't have them in the State as non-equal citizens forever. That is a situation bound to fail. SO to say there could be ethnic cleansing is not at all reckless. It is unfortunately realistic.
As to this:
Perhaps to give the Palestinians their state would cause the Europeans and other Palestinian benefactors to stop paying disproportionate heed to their plight above all others and start to address situations in the world that deserve more attention, where far more people are affected and suffer.
I agree, I think you are most likely correct here.
I said what I said about ethnic cleansing because Israel acts according to the rule of law. Maybe it will pay people to leave, but it will not coerce them, absent specific acts of belligerence or aggression.
DeleteOne might argue that not talking about 2 states creates pressure on the Palestinians to get their state before it's too late. Since Palestinian leaders are not interested in 2 states as most people understand, it's academic, particularly until they reach their own consensus. I think it's forgone that they will only become more radicalized. Though there remains the paradox that many would prefer to live as Israelis, there is fear in the polity to oppose the radicals who use religion and corruption to manipulate the polity.
I have no idea what the borders would or should be, but cannot envision it would be all of the West Bank. It should include all Jerusalem because the Palestinians cannot be trusted with the holy sites. In any event, there are some that say demography actually favors the Jews because Palestinian rates are declining at an accelerated rate.
http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_opinion.php?id=1982
Well as for this:
DeleteI said what I said about ethnic cleansing because Israel acts according to the rule of law. Maybe it will pay people to leave, but it will not coerce them, absent specific acts of belligerence or aggression.
While you may be technically correct about the last part I would not say that Israel necessarily always acts according to the "rule of law". Israel might do it more than others but in the end they are State actors who view laws (assuming you are talking about international accords here) as being necessary until.. they are not. Like any other nations.
As for the rest... I would argue about the two States situation. I believe in the end that Abbas and Fayyad would settle for Two States. I understand who Abbas is and what he has said, but, I also understand what he has done. The problem of course is that whether Abu Mazen or Salam Fayyad want two States or not is immaterial IF they cannot get those States within the confines of their negotiating positions. They simply cannot give up their demands on the Harm al Sharif or Al-Aqsa and expect to live out the day.
If you would, please clarify this:
It should include all Jerusalem because the Palestinians cannot be trusted with the holy sites.
IF you are referring to Jewish Holy Sites, I can agree with that. IF however, you are referring to Christian or Muslim Holy Sites, I would disagree. ALSO... what are you defining as "Holy Sites"?
Anyway, I have heard the demographic arguments made by the Israeli right. I don't buy them. BUT even if that were true - the births are amongst the Harediim NOT the "average" Israelis. SO.. while you might be able to maintain a Jewish majority, it would eventually become a Haredi majority.
Think on that.
Have to address this shortly.
DeleteI look at Israel as any other state, and not to a single standard. It's adherence to the rule of law is superior. For example, did you look at the second Turkel report?
As for two states, Abbas has no authority except on paper. He is holding on by a thread, probably lining his pockets to the max. Perhaps he should offer a 3 state solution.
The holy sites are not just Jewish. One need only see the desecration done by Muslims seeking to obliterate and deny history to understand what I said. Plus, there is the possibility of 1948-67 all over again when it comes to access, not to mention that Palestinians living there may actually prefer it to be part of Israel.
Fair enough.. On your points:
DeleteI look at Israel as any other state, and not to a single standard. It's adherence to the rule of law is superior. For example, did you look at the second Turkel report?
Israel's standard IS superior to those of the surrounding nations (and really most in the world) and I said this in my previous comment. BUT while it is superior, Israel is like any other nation and for it, as I said previously, International Law (which I actually don't really care about because it is both arbitrary and non-binding), is to Israel as it is to any other nation - Useful until it isn't.
As for Abu Mazen... Maybe. Certainly it is true that he is barely holding on and it is true like every leader in that area he is lining his pockets. Maybe a Three State Solution is the answer as well BUT... then if he offers that he goes down in history as the "Palestinian leader that split his own people". I just can't see that happening. BUT, you never know.
As for the last paragraph.. I am going to disagree with you when you talk about sites that are not Jewish. Unless you are using Hard Right Sources, the Christian Holy Sites were handled just fine. You don't see the Christian Patriarchs supporting Israel here. I remember when I lived in Jerusalem that the Christian's there were not happy Israeli rule even though one could argue that they had more freedom under the Israelis.
As for access - Christian Holy Sites were NOT closed off from '48-'67. Just Jewish ones. But I acknowledged that in my earlier comment.
As for Palestinians in Jerusalem wanting to be part of Israel. Only 30% in that poll you are talking about wanted to be part of Israel. That has dropped now to 29%.
If you want to see something really disturbing - read this poll: http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2012/p46e.html
International law is what exists. Though imperfect, how else do you determine norms? In some cases it is binding, as well. What do you think peace treaties are?
DeleteAs for polls, the one you link is why there is so much difficulty dealing with the Palestinians. However, you should not make assumptions. Here is data that shows the figure may exceed 40%, which is a significant number.
http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/poll-shows-40-percent-of-jerusalem-arabs-prefer-israel-to-a-palestinian-sta
Here is another that shows the rightists accept 2 states:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/poll-most-rightist-israelis-would-support-palestinian-state-dividing-jerusalem.premium-1.490926
Bottom line is that it is hard to make peace with those who have different intentions.
As I have said twice before (this is the third time), International Law is treated by nations as all well and good until it no longer suits them to follow it. You know that this is true. It is arbitrary, and unenforceable. I understand what International Law strives to do. But what it strives to do and what it does are two very different things.
DeleteAs for the polls... the Washington Institute Poll is over a year and a half old and shows a number of things regarding that. Needless to say while 40% IS a significant number, 60% is a strong majority. Not only that, but, as I said (twice before) that the Palestinian polity would never settle for it whether the Jerusalemites wanted it or not.
On the Rightists "accepting" two States..
That is an interesting poll... The question it asked runs diametrically opposite of the Likud-Betainu, HaBayitHaYehudi, and Yesh Atid Platforms. Basically it stipulates that if the Olmert Plan were offered the Rightists would take it.
So that brings up an interesting question? Why? Why would people vote for parties that support in action and in theory a One State Solution when they would be more than happy with a Two State Solution?
So we should ditch international law? That is the impression I am getting from you. As if the ICCPR, the CRC, the WTO, the Rome Statute or Geneva Conventions, among others, do not have utility? Or the peace treaties Israel has signed? The fact is that international law works quite well, considering that it is based almost completely on consensus. That is not to say it is without shortcomings. What would you replace it with?
DeleteYou ask:
DeleteSo we should ditch international law? That is the impression I am getting from you.
No I don't think so. BUT I do think that it is something that is used at nations convenience. Ultimately nations do what they are going to do International Law be damned.
Still, it may be the "only game in town" and as I don't know what could replace it unless we built real enforcement into it - it is what we have. However, I don't see nations building a consensus around that other than paying it lip service.
So while I don't think we should abandon that - I can see how I gave you that impression.
More Interesting news... and something that would also be counter-intuitive to Barak Ravid's cited Polls:
DeleteHere, from the Times of Israel:
In his first address to the Knesset plenum as an MK
Tuesday, Naftali Bennett, the leader of the Orthodox, right-wing Jewish Home party, made clear his ideological opposition to relinquishing any Israeli land in a peace deal with the Palestinians.
“There is no room in our small but wonderful God-given tract for another state,” Bennett said in a speech that stressed Israel’s Jewish religious heritage as a cornerstone of its society. “It won’t happen. Friends, before every discussion on the territories, we need to declare: ‘The land of Israel belongs to the people of Israel.’ Only then can we start the debate.”
So now, where do those polls stand relative to Bennett's statements? It's a good question, and I wonder how those who voted for him feel now that HaBayit HaYehudi has reiterated its official position.
At this point, I care more about things like Hagel and Brennan than posturing by Israeli politicians. As I said, I hope it gives the Palestinians something more to factor for their own intransigence.
Delete(livosh1)
ReplyDeleteCalling for unilateral declaration of borders is the functional equivalent of the other side's BDS and (unlimited) right of return; it is a too-cute-by-half call for ending the conflict with one side left without a state. Neither side is very clever with hiding their true motivations in that regard. Single state pipe dreams by the extremists on both sides are just that.
I'm sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. How does, for instance, keeping the settlement blocs everyone knows will remain in Israel, and then withdrawing from the rest of the territories leave the Palestinians without a state? The rest of the territories are then theirs. And how does this even come close to being the functional equivalent of advocacy for BDS and an unlimited right of return? Please expand.
DeleteYou would have a point if what I were calling for is a 'single state,' but nowhere have I ever called for this or even remotely suggested anything of the like. In fact, as always, I note that, though I have my own personal opinons on what is best, what I am ultimately 'calling for' is simply for Israel to end this situation as soon as possible and move on to the continuing production of better chickpeas and more Natalie Portmans, in peace.
As far as reading my mind goes, I would argue that mischaracterization and the ascribing of false and sinister motives to another's position is not very useful when it comes to attempting understanding and seeking to end a conflict.
Well livosh... I would say "yes" and "no"....
DeleteI don't see all of those talking about "unilateralism" as wanting a One State Solution. I do see it in some. People like Naftali Bennett and his supporters certainly. I also see it in the deeper motivations of "well the Israelis will do what they have too and if that is what they need... well...."
BUT, I don't see that in Jay's comment or in other individuals. I myself have called for unilateralism on occasion and you know I certainly don't support a One State Solution.
So.. I would say, yes and no to that aspect because I think there is room for nuance there.
As for this:
Neither side is very clever with hiding their true motivations in that regard.
I would agree this more than I would disagree
Single state pipe dreams by the extremists on both sides are just that.
I would disagree here... Single State with Peace is a "pipe dream" by extremists on either side. But the Single State solution is unfortunately closer to reality than maybe any of us think.
(livosh1)
DeleteCome on, volley. The notion that unilaterally drawing borders is even remotely consistent with a genuine two-state resolution, with a viable Palestinian state, doesn't pass the laugh test. Of course the proponents of unilateralism won't mention the words "single state" in the same breath with unilateral border drawing, but, there is no feasible way to establish a truly viable Palestinian state by Israel acting unilaterally. The only way to establish two states is through difficult, exhausting, and good-faith negotiations that find a way to meet the aspirations of both peoples, or alternatively find a solution through honest give and take that both sides can live with. And that means resolving (and truly resolving) questions about Jerusalem, commerce, refugees, security arrangements, citizenship, water rights, and ending the conflict (and all claims arising from the conflict) once and for all . A viable Palestinian state cannot be established any other way. It ain't just about borders, for goodness sakes. Unilateral declarations about borders will not resolve the conflict. Virtually all the problems will still be there.
Furthermore, it is important to note that with respect to the Allon plan, that was hatched back in the '70s, before Jordan relinquished its claim to the West Bank. To that end, the Allon plan contemplated that the portions of the West Bank relinquished by Israel would revert to Jordan, and thus there was no consideration of that those areas could sufficiently comprise a viable independent state. Indeed, the rationale was that Jordan was already a state comprised of a majority of Palestinians. Well, that was almost 40 years ago, and no one is buying that now, not even Jordan. So, to the extent that right-wingers are pointing toward Allon plan borders, that says a great deal about their thoughts concerning a viable independent Palestinian state.
Now, with respect to your contention that some proponents of unilateralism don't mention (overtly) the notion of a single state, that is about as meaningful as the fact that BDS and right of return proponents don't overtly refer to the abolishing Israel. But it's plainly evident that proponents of unilateralism have no plan for how a viable Palestinian state (and everything that entails) would be established and thrive in that scenario, as evidenced by the fact that they never ever talk about how that would work. That is very similar to how BDS/right of return proponents never talk abut how the Jewish state of Israel will continue to exist after there is their so-called "full equality" and unlimited "right of return." So, in my view, the comparison is warranted; the dishonesty is similar. Granted there may be a few morons who don't understand the implication of what they are advocating for with respect to unilateralism or BDS/right of return, but such dimwits are few and far between.
Finally, with regard to your comment that the single state solution is close to reality, I don't agree. The facts on the ground that Bibi is trying to make can still be undone, if majorities on each side commit to getting it done.
Thanks for this clear response, but, I still disagree with ou on a few things. To start with:
DeleteFinally, with regard to your comment that the single state solution is close to reality, I don't agree. The facts on the ground that Bibi is trying to make can still be undone, if majorities on each side commit to getting it done.
But that is the problem, majorities on both sides are NOT committing to getting it done. The Palestinians certainly are not rushing out to renounce Right of Return or give up claims to all of Jerusalem. Abbas couldn't take what he had back to the populace and he walked on Olmert. And the Israelis... Well look at Likud-Betainu, and HaBayit HaYehudi. Sure the mainstream Israeli population wants a Two State solution but what are they actually doing to achieve it? Not much.
I mean the #2 guy in Likud, and # 4 guy on the list (#2 in Betainu) just said that they won't allow for a Palestinian State, and these are the guys running the largest party in Israel and who hold the PM's office. SO... I think that this train is rolling and unless something gets done fast, that is where things are going.
Do I know what to do? No.. I have ideas but those and $1.00 get me a cup of coffee at 7-11
As for the rest of your post... Believe me, I see your frustration,yes unilateralism is NOT the preferred way to go, and as I said to you, I believe the only way for this to work in the end is through negotiations. The question is how do we get these negotiations going.
Moreover, both sides Israeli and Palestinians are moving much harder to the right. Right now, if elections are held in the Territories... according to polls Hamas wins. Here is the back-up on that...
f new presidential elections are held today, and only two were nominated, Abbas would receive the vote of 45% and Haniyeh 48% of those participating. The rate of participation in such elections would reach 69%. Three months ago, Abbas received the support of 51% and Haniyeh 40%. In this poll, in the Gaza Strip, Abbas receives 44% and Haniyeh 52% and in the West Bank Abbas receives 45% and Haniyeh 45%. The percentage of vote for Haniyeh is the highest since Hamas’ electoral victory in 2006. The previous highest percentage of vote for Haniyeh stood at 47% in March 2008 immediately after the breaching of the Rafah borders with Egypt. Percentage of support for Abbas at that time stood at 46%. http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2012/p46e.html
SO... what do we do?
Read the rest of that poll, it points to sharply increased radicalism in the Palestinian population (something that the Netanyahu government I believe actually wants).
You know me livosh.. there are some times that I advocate unilateralism, am I one of those "One Staters" - of course not. I mean I would say that you are right that some people advocating One-State are as you describe. But not all. That is my only point.
(livosh1)
DeleteVolley, maybe I missed it, but I don't recall you being an advocate of unilaterally setting final borders, and certainly not in the manner suggested here in these comments or elsewhere by right-wingers who have never given more than lip-service to the notion of a viable two-state solution. Unlike them, you have been very clear and specific as to the details of a two-state solution, and those details don't jive with the notion that (to paraphrase someone at a certain hideous right-wing site) "Israel should just go ahead and declare it's final borders and be done with it."
So I don't really get your attempt to provide cover for those calling for a unilateral declaration of final borders. With the exception of those who are too dumb to understand what they are saying, I think it is more than fair to consider the call for a unilateral setting of borders to be a call for taking active, affirmative steps to cease any and all efforts toward the creation of a viable Palestinian state.
One last point (and sorry for not letting this thread die) about the majorities who are not committed to getting this done: I think there too often is a disconnect between how people vote and what they hope for and desire. That was certainly the case here in 2004, when too many people voted based on their fears (no matter how irrational) and Bush was re-elected. And how else can you explain Israeli polls that say a majority favors the creation of a Palestinian state and yet they vote for parties and candidates who -- through their actions -- have made it abundantly clear that they have no intention of taking real steps toward making progress toward that end? Too often, people vote their fears rather than their hopes and desires (maybe that has happened with respect to Hamas). And sometimes that doesn't change until the status quo becomes completely intolerable. But it can change. So I'm not going to throw my hands up and give up all hope.
It's ok to not let this die... I am not too stressed about it. I always value your opinion so even when we disagree I am cool with that.
DeleteYou are of course also right when you say this:
Unlike them, you have been very clear and specific as to the details of a two-state solution, and those details don't jive with the notion that (to paraphrase someone at a certain hideous right-wing site) "Israel should just go ahead and declare it's final borders and be done with it.
Please understand that I am NOT trying to provide "cover" for any "One State" proponents. I am merely trying make sure that, unlike those that like to paint with a hyperbolic broad brush (and that brush is similar at both extremes as we have seen) that we try to be as truthful and fair as possible. Of course, that favor would not be returned but, I don't really care about that. It is about being the best I can be.
Anyway, I think you make a great point here:
Too often, people vote their fears rather than their hopes and desires (maybe that has happened with respect to Hamas).
That could be and that does indeed explain how we can get a poll like oldschool cited where a fair amount of respondents who would vote HaBayit HaYehudi and Likud Betainu also favored a reasonable Two State Solution DESPITE the fact that the leadership in those parties insist on a One State Solution (with the weird exception of the Prime Minister - who I think wants it but is smart enough to play the "reasonable" line in public.
I really like your point about voting for Hope. It's been a long time that I had some in my voting life. I mean 2008 I was extremely hopeful, this last time while very happy so far about the Obama Presidency particularly compared to the Republicans, I voted to make sure that the Republicans didn't get close to the White House. Because indeed while things with the Pres. could be better - the Republicans would have been absolutely horrific and that is no hyperbole.
(livosh1)
DeleteWell, I'm probably beating a dead horse, but I think it is important to acknowledge that -- if final borders were ever drawn unilaterally -- the likelihood that Palestinians could pick up the leftover bread crumbs and create a thriving, successful state is slim and none. That's why I think it is fair to call out those who favor (over other alternatives) the unilateral drawing of final borders. If any of them seriously believes that doing so would allow for the existence of viable two-states, the burden is on them to make the case for it. Otherwise, I think there is only one reasonable conclusion that can be drawn.
So really the key word is "viable"... I don't know that those who favor unilateralism give a crap about a "viable" solution (of course because they don't have to live with the results of that), or because they just don't care.
DeleteCertainly a "viable" State enhances the chances for a real peace - BUT it is not the be all end all. Perhaps the first step is defining what each side thinks is "viable"? I think one would find two very different definitions..
As for unilateralism... it may be all that is left. I am not at that point but I can see it. Israel needs to do something regarding its demographic situation OR the relative health of it's democracy.
I just don't think that it is a simple black and white issue though I get your concerns and they do make some sense.
(livosh1)
DeleteWell -- if someone mouths the words "I favor a two-state solution," but the rest of their words demonstrate a scenario whereby the proposed Palestinian state is not one that anyone could honestly believe would have a reasonable chance for success, then the person really hasn't signed on to a two-state solution that is reality-based. So, the word "viable" is important (at least in this scenario), because otherwise the words "two-states" are meaningless (and probably intentionally so).
I can't agree with the statement that unilateralism may be "all that is left." It certainly won't resolve the conflict, and any attempts at unilateralism may actually make the situation worse.
(livosh1)
DeleteBTW -- The same b.s.needs to be called out on the other side. And if I remember correctly, you once did just that when you called out heathlander's statement of support for a two-state solution, because his support contemplated a full Palestinian right of return to Israel. That, as you rightly said, is effectively a proposal for abolishing one of the two states (Israel), and is therefore a load of crap. I would take it a step further, and conclude that any endorsement of a two-sate solution with a full right of return to Israel is not an honest proposal for a two-state solution.
That is a ridiculous statement that not only assumes Israel would annex all of the territories, but seeks to identify "true motivations" from a position of ignorance and prejudice. Some may want all the cake, but most who want peace (even Netanyahu) understand that at this point it must be shared. As such, there is no equivalence to BDS and unlimited right of return whatsoever. It would, in fact, allow creation of a Palestinian state, if that is what Palestinian leaders actually seek.
ReplyDeleteVB, Interesting analogy using the Kobyashi Maru. But don't forget that one James T. Kirk did defeat the scenario. He did it by reprogramming the simulator because he said: "I don't believe in the no-win scenario." Despite having cheated, Kirk was awarded a commendation for "original thinking."
ReplyDeleteBelieve me, I don't think that Mr. Netanyahu is in Captain Kirk's class, but the idea of reprogramming the scenario does seem to have some merit. --Hey338Too
Yep... agreed 100%.
DeleteI agree with you - there has to be some proposal that is completely "out of the box" (and I have some ideas but everyone tells me they won't fly - so maybe they are right after all).
Maybe they are. As I was reading your post I was thinking about Kirk's solution. Maybe it's a matter of starting by reprogramming the debate? I'd be interested in reading what you think, if you've published those ideas on the blog please let me know.
DeleteQuite possible that this is what's needed. I think both sides (but more the Palestinians than Israelis) need to start re-thinking process and attempting to understand their differing perspectives.
DeleteMy solution involves Mutual Defense Pacts with the U.S. and/or NATO a Permanent trade agreement with the E.U. to ensure Israeli Security in the event of a treaty or land swaps. At the same time I think the Palestinians need similar inducements but serious economic aid for their new State from Israel, the E.U., and the U.S. Countries that are wealthier and have solid Middle Classes tend to be more stable and less prone to radicalization and violence.
Anyway, Here are some of my previous thoughts in an article I headlined as Why Kicking Time Bombs Down The Road Never Works: http://www.progressivezionist.com/2013/01/why-kicking-time-bombs-down-road-never.html
Oh and for a smile... did you notice that the dumbasses over at DKos think I am back with a Zombie? They are seriously stressed over that. For the record, I am not nor do I ever plan on posting in that shit hole again. Who the fuck needs to deal with a rabid bunch of idiots who have the collective I.Q. of a bag of rocks? I mean, seriously?
I did see that on DKos - typical of that krewe (<-notice the Mardi Gras spelling). I believe your desire to stay away. I am going to let them chase their tails - it makes for a much better show. :-)
DeleteAlso, fyi: Strummerson on MM = ortheother on GOS
--Hey338Too wishing you a happy Mardi Gras from NOLA
HAHAHAHA the visual of the chasing tail... It is so accurate. Any new Pro-I poster too is going to get the "OH TEH NOEZ - It's vbboy coming back". Poor guys, that is going to be funny to watch. LOL, but no... none of them will be me. I don't roll like that.
DeleteAnd I know about Strummerson and ortheother.. figured that one out. His diary on anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism was good. He is an interesting guy.
Happy Mardi Gras... Enjoy!
"Interesting" is a good word. He and I had an interesting exchange on GOS. Anyway, I'm going to head out - when I get a few I'll read the post you pointed me to. Have a good one man! -Hey338Too
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