Here is what I don't get... What is difficult about ending the Gaza altercation? In Israel and in America the Hard Left keeps talking in terms of a cease fire or a truce. The Lunatic Right, both here and there, keep talking about blowing Gaza into little bits and "levelling" the place. Neither one of course, (and as usual) is right. They simply aren't. It's not hard to see an answer yet despite the ease of that answer no one wants to address it. Why? Because it takes away an easy crisis that both sides need to feed their power base.
Hamas NEEDS to see their children and civilians die. It's in their interest. They can't maintain any sort of power if they are not seen as the "Heroes of Resistance". They will fight to the very last civilian (as long as their money and influence are not harmed), just to prove that they and no one else is who should rule in the land that is now Israel and Palestine. They certainly don't care who they have to kill to get there and the more their own people suffer, the more they can take those people's minds off of their own failures and corruption.
The Israeli and American Right, need to have an enemy to fight in order to continue to scare people into supporting their nihilistic Randian vision of the world coupled with building towards some fictional Spartan state that they can all feel very tough about while sending other peoples kids to do their fighting for them.
ANYWAY... In all of the analysis and hand wringing about what Israel is doing everyone keeps talking about cease fires and Ten Year Truces and how if Israel just ended it's embargo on the Gaza Strip everything would be peace and light. The Useful Idiots and their supporters all talk about the culpability of Israel without addressing the prime issue, that of the responsibility of Hamas and the Palestinians to simply accept that Israel exists as the National Homeland and State of the Jewish people. IF they did this simple thing... this conflict would be over within ten seconds.
Imagine if a Palestinian leader would go to the Israelis and say "Listen, we are sick of war and sick of what is happening so here's the deal. Give us the land in the Olmert deal for a nation, including at least half of the Old City of East Jerusalem. We will de-militarize for ten years however, YOU are responsible for our protection as well as training of our military so that when we get through our growing pains we can have a professional and responsible military. ALSO, we will need aid. You and the U.S. need to build up our infra-structure and provide a market for our goods until we can develop our markets. That means access to roads, water, and the like. In return... We will give you a complete and total peace. We recognize that Israel is and will be the National Homeland and State of the Jewish people . We will open cultural and trading exchanges and allow for our children to learn with yours in mixed education programs."
That's it. That would end it right then and there. The War, this exchange, the conflict. Done. It would be completely over. No one, but no one asks this of the Palestinians. To be fair, no one on the Israeli Right would lay this out as an opportunity either. But you have to give something to get something. The Palestinians have to retain some pride to make this a lasting deal. So... This is a fair deal. The Palestinians get control of Islam's third holiest site (the Haram al-Sharif), Christianity's holiest site (Bethlehem) and they get a secure and viable state. They can even negotiate for recompense for those driven from their homes in past wars. Israel would be foolish not to accept these terms.
Until then though, why should Israel cede one inch of anything to people that talk in terms of destroying them? They shouldn't. They need to keep the pressure on Hamas' leadership until they are either dead, removed, or at some point they realize that they will not be dislodging the Israelis and that it is time to do something for their own people rather than continuing to play politics.
What I am curious about is why isn't anyone insisting that Hamas formally recognize Israel? That never, ever gets discussed. There are a million and one other things discussed but no one ever addresses this. YET, this is the simplest thing in the world IF one really wants to end this horrible conflict. Israel will recognize the Palestinians... why won't they simply recognize Israel as the nation it was created to be?
Sadly, this is just a "pipe dream". Hamas has too much money to make and too much power to gain for them to do anything like that. The Israeli Right, I fear, would never accept this as it goes against the concept of Eretz Yisrael HaShlema. BUT, I do think there are some on the Israeli Right that might go along whereas I think there is no one in Hamas or in it's support base that would consider this.
But as an American, I sit here and wonder.... How is this so difficult? And WHY is this not even discussed?
When it comes to Hamas, Golda is being proven right every. single. day; Abba Eban too.
ReplyDeleteAs for why what you suggest isn't discussed when it comes to Hamas, that's because there's so much of the world that's anti-Semitic and would love to see Israel simply cease to exist. After all, they see Jews as nothing more as foreign colonists rather than natives of the Middle East. They have as much use for facts and science as the GOP.
That may be true Reuven... BUT.. It still should be discussed. That is the big disappointment for me that people who claim to be "Liberal / Progressive" are silent in the face of Hamas' bigotry. YET... at the same time, I think many of these people are simply rightists with certain leftist social agenda's. I think they are the junction where Left and Right meet on the political scale.
DeleteIn fact, I think that they are not that different from the loons on the Right, just change the names and religion and there really is not a whole lot of difference. I mean I saw on one hate site where people were talking about leveling Gaza until they submit. THEN on one Leftist hate site they talked about leveling Tel-Aviv. It is the same freakin' drum.
I don't want to see Gaza leveled but as I do think as long as they are firing rockets, launch sites need to be hit no matter where they are. ALSO, I think that as long as the leaders of Gaza insist on the destruction of Israel I would say that they are fair game. There are innocent people in Gaza who don't deserve to victimized by either side. So I hold the Gazan Leadership responsible for this.
Again, all they have to do is STOP and come to grips with 21st century reality. It really is that simple.
Yes, Hamas leaders are fair game and whenever innocents are killed because they choose to hide behind civilians it is they, and not Israel, who has the blood of those innocents on their hands.
DeleteThe extremism is a problem, but there needs to be something done. I think at this point the only option to create some degree of peace and quiet is a ground offensive. It will be messy, but I think it's absolutely necessary.
I don't know about that... A Ground offensive opens a lot of bad doors. In the end I am not sure what it would accomplish unless it leads to re-occupation and I don't think that is something Israel really wants or needs.
DeleteThere are truce talks going in Cairo brokered by the Egyptians and the U.S. Morsi may be talking a big game to keep his people in line but, right now he seems to be cooperating with the U.S. (because really our aid and the potential that he might lose it is a big deal).
But in the end... until someone holds Hamas accountable for their actions and until Hamas' supporters and the civilians they rule over say "ENOUGH" they simply have no incentive not to fight. But you know what... Such is life (and death), if that's the road they want to travel then they will pay the price.
I don't know that there is a right answer, per se. However, something needs to be done to make the rockets stop. A ground offensive might be able to destroy enough infrastructure to make Hamas reel enough that it agrees to a ceasefire and actually enforces it.
DeleteAs for holding Hamas accountable, we see how the world behaves. There are a few in the world that recognize Israel's right to defend herself. However, it seems the majority of the nations of the world think that it's only the Jewish state that has no such right.
Volleyboy: Since 2006 the US (via the Quartet) has had the demand of Hamas that they recognize Israel, along with recognizing previous Palestinian-Israeli agreements (Oslo, Wye River) and renouncing terror. Obama has echoed the same calls-- at AIPAC Policy Conference in 2011 he stated ""We will continue to demand that Hamas accept the basic responsibilities of peace: recognizing Israel’s right to exist, rejecting violence, and adhering to all existing agreements."
ReplyDeleteThe "Sadat to Jerusalem" moment that you conjure above could only involve the West Bank; it could never involve Gaza as long as Hamas is in control. But whether because Abbas truly believes in the fictional "right of return", or (and in my guesstimation, more likely) he recognizes that his life span after such a proposal would be measured in hours, he's not going to do it. And even if he did-- the Israeli public has no confidence in his ability to enforce it and prevent Hamas-stan from being installed within rock-- not rocket, just plan ROCK-- range of the Western Wall and within rifle range of downtown Jerusalem.
I know DrMike.. and that is the sad thing. I am not saying that my imagination has conjured up a realistic solution. It has just conjured up an easy solution.
DeleteWhat stuns me is the lack of interest in making Hamas accountable for it's behavior in the circles that claim to be progressive. It is simply ridiculous.
As for President Obama... the guy is right on and I am glad that I voted for and actively supported him. For someone who supposedly supports radical Jihad and Political Islam, (/snark)... he is pretty freakin' good and is and has been a great friend to Israel. So thank you for pointing that out.
(livosh1)
ReplyDeleteI just read this from Ameinu:
"Gershon Baskin told the Ameinu Board of Directors today that intense negotiations continue in Cairo between Hamas and Israel, mediated by the Egyptian security chief and in the presence of Turkish and Qatari representatives. The goal is not a simple cease fire, as both sides are looking for new conditions that have not existed in the past. Israel wants a closure of the tunnels that are used to bring missiles into Gaza, and Hamas wants an end to targeted assassinations and an end to the economic embargo."
Regarding:
ReplyDeleteThe Israeli Right, I fear, would never accept this as it goes against the concept of Eretz Yisrael HaShlema. BUT, I do think there are some on the Israeli Right that might go along whereas I think there is no one in Hamas or in it's support base that would consider this.
I'm not sure there is no one in Hamas who might go along with recongizing Israel. I think one of the big problems is Klahed Mashal. He is constantly engaging in really violent rhetoric about Martydom while he sits comfortably in Syria, Qatar etc. I wonder what would happen if he was out of the picture.
Interesting question regarding Meshaal, CTMET... But didn't he step down and turn things over to Haniyeh and the Gazan Wing of Hamas (who... are a bit more pragmatic in their approach).
DeleteI think Hamas in Gaza is playing the "long game". They definitely came out of this exchange "ahead" in terms of the political game. They are now in stronger position with regards to the Palestinian "street" than prior. ALSO, they understand what Morsi and the Egyptians will do regarding conflict with Israel.
For them, losing 160 civilians and putting everyone on hardship is a win as long as they can spin it as "war against an overwhelming foe". I plan on writing on the winners and losers as I see it, but, I am still trying to figure that one out.
Thanks for coming on over and commenting btw. Much appreciated.
Apparently Meshal is/was supposed to resign after elections. I'm not sure when or if those will happen.
ReplyDeleteHe is also apparently interested in being head of the PLO.
http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/blogs/politics/4357-meshaal-decision-to-stand-down-sparks-struggle-for-soul-of-hamas
There is some speculation that Iran pushed him out for not being supportive enough of Syria.
http://challahhuakbar.blogspot.com/2012/09/hamas-officials-confirm-that-khaled.html
In any case he is still talking smack from his safe spot in Qatar. I'm sure they've got just as many personalities/opinions as there are on the Israeli side.
"The top leader of Hamas dared Israel on Monday to launch a ground invasion of Gaza and dismissed diplomatic efforts to broker a cease-fire in the six-day-old conflict, as the Israeli military conducted a new wave of deadly airstrikes on the besieged Palestinian enclave, including a second hit on a 15-story building that houses media outlets. A volley of rockets fired from Gaza into southern Israel included one that hit a vacant school.
Speaking at a news conference in Cairo, where the diplomatic efforts were under way, the Hamas leader, Khaled Meshal, suggested that the Israeli infantry mobilization on the border with Gaza was a bluff on the part of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel.
“If you wanted to launch it, you would have done it,” Mr. Meshal told reporters. He accused Israel of using the invasion threat as an attempt to “dictate its own terms and force us into silence.”
Rejecting Israel’s contention that Hamas had precipitated the conflict, Mr. Meshal said the burden was on the Israelis. “The demand of the people of Gaza is meeting their legimitate demands — for Israel to be restrained from its aggression, assassinations and invasions, and for the siege over Gaza to be ended,” he said.
WOW... He dared Israel to launch a Ground invasion???? Jeez, what is this Sixth Grade? I guess it shows you just how much he cares for the civilians in Gaza. As I said... Hamas will gladly fight to the last civilian.
DeleteWell Meshaal is an interesting character, I didn't know that he wanted to be head of the PLO, that is fascinating. I guess anything to get some press, since it is pretty clear that the "winner" in Hamasland was Haniyeh.
I actually had a longer post that got deleted and then I couldn't remember what I wrote. One of the points I wanted to make is that maybe there isn't one "Hamas" point of view, just as there isn't one "Israeli" point of view or even one "Likud" point of view.
DeleteI'm pretty sure Hamas is very into stifling dissent and expression.
Even the UN seems to be behind this point of view.
http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/topic,4565c2254a,4565c25f59f,4dc2b52ac,0,,,PSE.html
The Hamas government has made it clear since June 2007 that it wants to control the media in Gaza, threatening media freedom. After the Gaza branch of the Union of Palestinian Journalists was disbanded, Hamas established a new system of accreditation for all telecommunications and Internet companies as well as broadcast media and news agencies based in the Gaza Strip. Hamas also enforced a 1996 law under which journalists can be imprisoned for putting out news deemed to threaten "national unity."
I'm wondering if there aren't actors within the organization (or certainly within Gaza) that may be able to take it in another direction after Meshal is gone.
Good comment. You are absolutely right about the power struggle within Hamas and the Palestinian polity in general. It (like the Israeli polity) is certainly not monolithic. I do know that within HAMAS itself there is the Exile Wing (call them the Meshaal wing), the establishment (Haniyeh and crew),and then they compete with the growing influence of P.I.J., P.R.C. and others both on the inside (those involved in the party) and those outside who are affiliated.
DeleteAs for Hamas' authoritarian views, those are well documented and continue to today. You should see what HRW has to say about them, and they are certainly not a Pro-Israeli group.
As for Hamas in Gaza going in another direction with Meshaal out... Not so sure. I am not convinced that he is a leading voice in Gaza anymore.