Is it true, or is it false, that the primary venues of BDS and anti-Semitic anti-Zionism in the West today primarily come from the progressive-left, including the grassroots / netroots of the Democratic Party?
What is the answer?Seemingly Mike doesn't feel that he can get a straight answer.
{Anyone?}
Who will give a clear and simple answer to an obvious question?
Well I tried to answer his question but he promptly deleted my answer which was:
Mike.... All I will say on this is that I have to disagree with your premiseNow, I understand why Mike would want to delete my answer since it expressly rejects the "fact" that he presents in his question. But that said there are other questions raised regarding this article that Mike doesn't respond to so I would be interested to hear his thoughts on these questions asked by JayinPhiladelphia:
To say that BDS and support for it has a good deal of traction on the "Progressive" (self styled because they are not progressive) Left is true. I would even go so far as to say that BDS in particular (which has it's roots in Right Wing / Arab boycotts of Jews) comes out of the very hard left which manifests itself at times in the netroots of generally left leaning sites.
I would disagree that this is particularly a problem with the Democratic Party which as we have seen over and over again is solidly Pro-Israel. Indeed there are some in the netroots of the party who are anti-Semitic, and who take on the mantle of anti-Zionism to hide their anti-Semitism. Is anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism a problem with the Left? Absolutely, and yes now more than ever it is.
That said... I think the answer to the question "Does anti-Semitism or anti-Zionism come primarily from the Left the and Netroots of the Democratic Party?" I would have to say "NO". I think anti-Semitism is very much alive on the Right and in the Republican Party (particularly the Teahaddist faction) AND in the Ron/Rand Paul insane Libertarian wing of the party (who while a minority of the Party do have a large public presence).
Mike, anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism are NOT a matter of Republican / Democrat or Right / Left. there is plenty of it on either side of the spectrum. Anti-Semitism / anti-Zionism are cancers that affect the body politic of both sides. So rather than blame one side or the other, why not just go after the anti-Semites / anti-Zionists / enablers of both (JVP - The Useful Idiot) whether they be Rick Santorum sending out Hanukkah cards that tell Jews to worship Jesus, OR whether they be the SJP at Vasser who published real life Nazi Propaganda posters? To simply call this a problem of the Left and the Democratic Party smacks of partisan nonsense more geared towards getting people to vote Republican more than actually fighting the issue of anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism.
But beyond that, the question to you then becomes, what do we do about it then? Are we all supposed to become Republicans? Take up with the right on social issues? I'm never going to do that. And I'm also never going to stop fighting for Israel.First of all, while I disagree with Jay in his agreement with Mike on his question, I applaud his efforts to find a solution to the problem of anti-Semitism AND to for his stout defense in other forums (Daily Kos) against the anti-Semitism that rages there almost unchecked.
Jay's question of what do we do about it (anti-Semitism / anti-Zionism on the Left) is a very valid one. How do we fight it? Do we fight it by becoming Rightists / Republicans, taking up their cause and in doing so simply become a mirror image of the Leftists that disregard facts and arguments in the pursuit of partisan justifications for their cause as is what Mike does? OR do we work to recognize that the problem of anti-Semitism / anti-Zionism is one that is NOT the property of one side of the fence but a problem taken up by extremes on both sides of the Political aisle as fizziks does?
Personally, I will go with the "fizziks approach" where he takes issue with anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism on both sides of the fence and attacks through information and reason without either misrepresenting or falsifying opposing points of view. Honestly, that seems the way to do this. Accurate and factual information is the key.
So to continue the answer to the question which Mike poses not as a question but as a statement of fact.
As I stated above there certainly is a problem with anti-Semitism on the Left. No one will deny it. To say it is the current source of anti-Semitism is the "Progressive Left" is to put it bluntly... Nonsense.
As Reuven points out (where Mike mistakenly thinks that Reuven agrees with his principle):
How is it not anti-Semitic when they are busy telling us we should give truth to the dual loyalty meme by placing Israel first and above all else, including priorities here at home.This is something that Mike and the RJC actively engage in (and to call those groups Leftists would be a joke). They regularly make appeals to Jewish voters to vote Republican because of the Israel issue. They don't even try to argue that Jews may agree with their economic policies or not, their argument is "Forget domestic concerns vote Republican because really your loyalty is to Israel not your own country". This is a constant from Republicans using Benjamin Netanyahu in a commercial (when PM Netanyahu did not endorse the use of his image or words for said commercial) to a post on Mikes blog here and here. Isn't this the very epitome of the dual loyalty canard?
But aside from that - the Right is rife with anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism in full with more examples than one can count.
SO to say that it is the left and the netroots of the Democratic Party that is the primary source of anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism, well that is simply false. To say that there is a problem on the left with anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism, that would be true. HOWEVER, it is also true to say that this is a problem on the Right as well.
Shalom.
I'm not quite sure how you can disagree that BDS comes from the Left, and also of what difference you see between my approach to combating antisemitism and that of fizziks, but thanks for the kind words, volley.
ReplyDeleteI view you, and everybody else here, as an ally just as much as anybody else.
I think we do need to acknowledge that the 'left' is providing a friendly home for pseudo-Nazis, in the form of BDS.
At the same time, we also need to acknowledge that the right, in the form of the Ron and Rand Pauls, are indeed also slowly bringing back the ole' Jew hatred they should have left behind once and for all, when William Buckley quite rightly kicked Pat Buchanan out into the street on his ass.
Shalom right back to you, brother. :)
Jay... I agree with you that BDS comes from the left... It is in my answer to Mike. check it out. I said this: I would even go so far as to say that BDS in particular (which has it's roots in Right Wing / Arab boycotts of Jews) comes out of the very hard left which manifests itself at times in the netroots of generally left leaning sites. ...
ReplyDeleteCheers...
Fair enough, volley.
DeleteCheers back at ya...
Thanks Jay... The only thing I saw different from you and Fiz was that I thought I saw that you agreed with Mike's "question" which I know Fiz doesn't agree with, so that was that.
DeleteAnyway, I have to tell you that you are doing a great job over at DKos - keep on truckin' man.
Thanks, volley.
DeleteI do agree with Mike's question, but as I've stated, I think it's an unhelpful dead end which shouldn't be focused on so much.
Turning Israel advocacy into a partisan thing is an extremely dangerous game, which I think we can both agree upon.
Jay.. We totally agree that turning Israel advocacy into a partisan thing is a very dangerous thing.... So...
DeleteI have to say I appreciate your writing lately particularly in the pushback against the haters at DKos.
Thanks. You should see the buffoon I'm in 'conversation' with now. Explicitly claiming that accusations of Jewish disloyalty are merely "negative statements about Israel's actions."
DeleteThe complete lack of self-awareness these bigots display is truly incredible.
Oh you mean the discussion with merrywidow... Yeah that is an interesting one.
DeleteInterestingly enough, now that very same person is being troll-rated and berated. Not for defending antisemitic tropes, of course, but rather for attacking another group of people.
DeleteQuite instructive. When merrywidow was merely atttacking Jews, it was crickets aside from me.
C'mon Jay... are you really surprised????
DeleteWe can't see what merrywidow said that got her "hidden". Can you reprint here in reply to me?
Also... How did you your meet and greet with the Useful Idiot go? You know that he is tweeting all about how he supports BDS and is reading Ali Abunimah's book (which is basically the left One State bible).
Here's the start -
Delete.....
Sorry for your misunderstanding. (0+ / 2-)
But 600 years ago it was not ALL Christians who were burning people at the stake and slaughtering towns full of "others."
And the point is, it takes time for the ugly violent nature of religion to moderate like Christianity did eventually.
the hide ratings are unwarranted
Islam IS violent just like Christianity was 600 years ago
Mohammed came about 600 years after Christ, so they are behind on the moderation thing
not all christians then and not all muslims now
people here really jump to conclusions like they are looking for ways to be offended.
by merrywidow on Wed May 21, 2014 at 06:16:06 AM PDT
[ Parent | Reply to This ]
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The first reply (in addition to many others from there on out in a long thread) was from an old 'friend' whose name you might recognize -
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Thanks for your elaboration. (8+ / 0-)
This:
Islam IS violent just like Christianity was 600 years ago
is exactly why you were HRed.
The fact that you make these types of statements and then claim that the hide ratings are unwarranted and that people are looking for ways to be offended indicates to me that you have a significant blind spot when it comes to Islam.
by Aunt Martha on Wed May 21, 2014 at 07:16:18 AM PDT
[ Parent | Reply to This ]
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Not a peep from that person, or any single one of the dozen-plus others who subsequently piled on, when merrywidow was 'merely' attacking Jews, of course.
Because I suppose those bigots 'understand' that particular brand of bigotry.
Re: David - he says a lot of things that I disagree with, to put it gently. We discussed a lot of that.
DeleteHe's also somebody I found to be a good guy in person, and somebody I would gladly meet with again. I believe the feeling is mutual.
If he wants to marginalize himself by aligning with the likes of vicious bigots like Abunimah, I think that's a shame. He's a very smart person who I would like to think should know better than to make such a mistake.
The key takeaway from our meeting, imo, was that we both quickly realized, for all of our internet battles over the past few years, that neither of us are Haman. Heh.
We do have two wildly different world views. Of course I believe mine is the more accurate one, but I don't view his thoughts as coming from a nefarious place.
I speak only for myself, and I take David at his word that he's a supporter of two states, including one of them being the Jewish State of Israel.
Whatever words he's putting out on the internet these days should speak for themselves, and I won't put my own interpretation on any of them.
I do wish we could all take the step of speaking to each other respectfully, especially those with whom we appear to profoundly disagree.
I am, of course, guilty of not always living up to that standard, to say the very least (heh), myself, but when I occasionally surprise myself by doing so, I usually find it to be a positive experience.
I'm absolutely not claiming that we should give obvious antisemites (like those I regularly battle on dKos and Tablet and Facebook and seemingly everywhere else anymore) a 'chance,' but I think that if I, of all people(!), can sit down civilly with someone like David Harris-Gershon, and have a good discussion, well then such things are clearly possible as well from the many others of those who aren't usually insanely abrasive assholes like myself, too. ;)